Gourami Battle lost, hope the danio isn't next.

[dskidmore]

Obtained fish one week ago:
A friend with medical problems asked me to please take her fish as she could no longer keep up with the aquarium maintenance. She had a 55 gallon tank that she kept heavily stocked. I only had a 20 gallon tank. Needless to say, I have bought a 75 gallon tank, and am preparing it as fast as possible.

The original agreement was for the previous owner to hang onto the fish until I had finished the 75 gallon, but she is getting weaker and a week ago demanded I take the fish ASAP. I "drip" acclimated 5 gallons worth of fish over two hours. (Fully open airline hose, larger siphon moving water from one 1/2 full bucket to the other one.) Into the 20 gallon they went. (Did not use old tank water, was heavily polluted with green water.) I'm ashamed to say how overcrowded the conditions in the tank are. There is around 30 inches of fish in my 20 gallon right now (around 20 fish, large variety including angel, goldfish, tetras, silver sailfin molly, and dwarf gouramis.)

Thought I was prepared, was doing better than expected:
Although the 20 gallon was not recently running, the aquaclear filter and some of the gravel have been running for about 4 years on one tank or another, so they take up much of the slack of the maturity of the tank itself.

Having had time to heavily re-cycle the 20 gallon tank before receiving the fish, I am amazingly keeping ahead of the ammonia cycle. (The 20 gallon was supposed to become the sump/filtration powerhouse for the 75 gallon.) I tested twice daily for the first couple days, and now every couple days since I can't believe the 0 result. (Nitrite 0, Nitrate around 30). I have added a bunch of new plants to help absorb nitrogen compounds, and am underfeeding in an attempt to keep the water quality up in the undersized tank.

My Mistake:
My pH was reading way too low (6.0) so I dosed a "small" amount of baking soda. I apparently overdosed, as the pH has skyrocketed to 7.6! (May also be due to the new plants absorbing CO2 that was in oversupply before, this was an end of day reading.)

Other water parameters:
Temp: running warm due to the weather (84F during the day)
Alk: 180 KH ppm due to the baking soda, was 60
Hardness: steady at 75 GH ppm

Filtration:
Aquaclear 150
Whisper Jr
average 2" of gravel that was "fed" until it cycled in a separate container prior to receiving fish.
Moderately dense planting (many vals, water sprite, crypts, parrot's feather, etc..)

Also running an air stone due to the current heat and overcrowding.

Food:
I am feeding the same foods that the previous owner did, in fact she gave me all the food she had left. (Wardley tropical premium flakes, with occasional frozen brine.) I am underfeeding to prevent nitrogen problems, feeding once daily what gets consumed in a single minute, trying to make sure everyone gets at least a little bit. (The angel is shy, and doesn't usually make it into the food frenzy, I feed her corner separately after the main pack goes after the first pinch of food.)

Symptoms:
The fish seem to have suffered ammonia damage before I received them. Many fins are tattered, and one has a discolored eye. I have added salt to help the recovery process, is there anything else that can be done?

The female dwarf gourami started appearing more ill than the rest on Saturday, after being in my aquarium a whole week. She would hide in the plants, and after awhile like this started laying on her side. She did not get any food at last two feeding times, and in fact shied away when I tried to spot feed the area she was in. (May have been avoiding the onrush of other fish.) I have now isolated her in a breeder box, where she still does not eat with no competitors around.

Being a naturally fat fish, that I have not had long enough to be familiar with, I can not tell if she is swollen. She seems basically shaped like her male counterpart.

Suggestions?
Any ideas on the gourami? pH shock? Swim bladder infection? QT and antibiotics? Several small water changes? Heat the tank at night to match the overly warm day temps? What about the others that have probable ammonia damage?

 

[greenmaji]

WELCOME TO AA!!!!!!!!
You seem to be on top of things here..
The PH would have been fine at 6.0.. let the water naturally go back to its normal tap water PH level in the future.. it will be much easier to keep the water peramiters staible and thats what the fish need to stay heathy.. The KH at 60ppm is fine as well thats just above 3KH wich is what is needed to prevent a PH crash..
I would think its unlikley that a tank with a greenwater condition would have ammonia problems (the algae in the green water consumes ammonia and all other forms of nitrogen very quickly).. This could be from overstocking or poor maintance..
If I were you I wouldnt use the 20 gallon as a sump.. I would use it to house fish that were not compatable.. like if the goldfish is a fancy that stays small I would put it in the 20 gallon... they dont need as much heat and produce more waste (wich they already produce alot of) in warmer water.. Or you can use the 20 gallon for after you get your 75 gallon up as a QT or hospital tank.. it seems like you could use a hospital tank now.. if she seems a bit on the swollen side.. maybe she is constipated.. if you can get her to eat (wich is an issue right now as you said) try to get her to eat a par-boiled shelled pea..
what are the current water peramiters.. how much nitrate? nitrite? ammonia? if you have any ammonia or nitrite present then water changes are in order.. since you have a fish or more ill I would try to keep nitrate down to 5-10ppm or less with water changes..

 

[dskidmore]

a) ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 30.
b) the tap water where I live is bad enough that it makes me sick when I drink it, I won't subject the fish to it. Before I switched to bottled, I had hair algae everywhere. The downside is it makes me hesatant to do large water changes, as I pay considerably more by the gallon. (Planning to get my own RO/DI unit when I can, but I've already stretched the husband's patience on the current project.) I'm hoping the plants will absorb some of the nitrate.
c) I can put the gourami in a 5 gallon bucket for isolation, I have a 10 gallon that will later be set up as my QT (I hate being in the middle of a big project when I run into a crisis.)
d) The greenwater indeed did not test positive for ammonia, but I suspect there was ammonia present after they were moved out of thier origional 55 gallon tank and into the previous owner's 20T. (She had to move into a smaller space, then was too ill to keep up with testing and water changes during the transition period.) The fin damage and known case history suggests it.
e) I tried peeled peas, but I did not try parboiling. My guppies used to love them raw. I will try parboiling tonight. Any better feeding method than splitting them and letting them sink?

The gourami is now laying belly up on the bottom of his isolation "tank", but will move if disturbed.

 

[dskidmore]

Started Maracyn-Two, and salt in 5 gallon isolation. Started with new tap water, will test parameters later. Will have to test water regularly, as I had to pick up a new sponge filter for the isolation tank. She still ignores boiled peas, working on hatching some brine, maybe wiggly food will be more appealing.

Annoyingly, she likes to hide under the filter, so I can't see her well in the bucket.

 

[dskidmore]

Is she getting enough air?

I've been trying to read up on this fish in hopes of finding out anything else I can do to help. Several sites mention that they breathe directly from the air, and must have access to the surface. She is staying on the bottom, I don't see her coming up for air, is this a concern? Her gills are pumping away down there.

 

[greenmaji]

pure RO water needs some minerals added.. have you tested the tap water to see if it can be pre-filtered some way other then RO to make it acceptable.? What exactly is in the tapwater that makes it uneceptable? it sounds like it might of been phosphate PO4 from the algae growth your talking about.. you really need to get your nitrates down below 10ppm if you are wanting the fish to recover.. clean water is nessiary for them to be restored to health. I would concern myself with keeping the water very clean first.. (but dont discontinue your current treatment.. stay the course, 5 days with the medication + how ever long you want to quarnteen with the salt) The fish not coming up for air may or may not be a bad thing but it seems ill enough I would be glad if it recovered at all.. Im not trying to discourage you but this will be a tough one to heal.. I wish you the best of luck in this effort!
sorry it took so long for me to reply.. I dont check this section very often.. I expected someone else to post in my absence.. well I guess this was a tough one..

 

[dskidmore]

Well, day four on the meds, I see minor improvement. The fish is no longer up-side down. She still leans a bit, and still will not eat. I tried live brine on her, and see no response. I've tried her old flake food, and boiled peas. No feeding response, just hides.

Should mature dwarf gouramis be chubby fish? Some sites claim that pudgieness is a sign of parasites, but when I went to the store to get an anti-parasitic, they said as long as she looks mostly like her mate who is acting healthy, I shouldn't assume the pudgieness itself is of concern. They encouraged me to just keep on with current treatment and not add to the regimine. (The ones they had at the store were about half the size of mine, and very skinny to boot.)

RO Water:
I'm not sure what it is in the water. I know I was using a Brita before, and it still affected my intestine badly. If it affects my body badly, it can't be good for the fish. That and the hair algae is what made me switch. The water tests out at 0 for nitrate, I don't have a phosphate test. It could also be an overabundance of trace minerals of some sort. Do you recomend any mineral additives other than aquarium salt? I see lots of drops and things, but I don't know if they're worth anything.

 

[dskidmore]

Hrm... The quickdip strips ran out. (Yes I know they are less accurate, but during times when you need frequent testing they are very helpful.) I broke out the Aquarium Pharmaeuticals kit and the Nitrate tests much lower: 5-10. I was wondering why I was struggling so with nitrates, it may have been my test kit.

 

[dskidmore]

Day 5: Worse again. I came home and thought she was dead, but she moved when I went to pick her up. Still won't eat. Less gill pumping. Currently resting tail-down. I'm going to ignore the pet store advice and start an anti-parasitic.

 

[dskidmore]

I added coppersafe to the regimine yesterday. She's still fighting, but so weak. At this point the weakness could be lack of food. I've been dispesing small amounts of live brine twice a day in an attempt to get her to eat. A single flake of her normal food at each feeding as well. I end up siphoning these out at the next water change.

Current regimine:
Twice daily:
Test ammonia and do 50% water change as needed.
In each gallon of water change water put .1 cc prime, 1/2 tsp aquarium salt, and 1/4 tsp copper safe.
Feed 5-10 live brine shrimp, one flake of previously accepted food. (She was previously accepting frozen brine and flake food.)

Daily:
One tablet of Maracyn-Two (only 5 gallons, but it would be difficult to split the pills correctly.)

Is the Maracyn-Two overdosing harmful? I might be able to break up the pill, but I'm not confident I wouldn't end up underdosing every other day. The powder form is available at the store, but only in huge quantities.

I've never seen a fish fight this hard, I really want to do everything I can to make her effort worth it. She is so passive now that I held her in my hand just under the surface to inspect her scales and gills. I still see no obvious symptoms beoynd the lack of energy and lack of desire to eat. She's mostly laying on her side on the bottom, and only stirs if touched. She also fights the current when I put in the water change water. (Maybe should set up a drip system for putting water change water back in, but to some extent it is gratifying to see her swim for a bit.)

Her mate is starting to show the same symptoms, suggesting to me that this is indeed something infectious. I have put him in the QT with her, and the rest of the fish are now reciving anti-bacterial fish food. (They don't seem to like it, the pellets are too big. I may switch to a diffrent brand of the same thing.)

 

[Devilishturtles]

Call up a lfs in the area and see if they carry a medicine called metrodinazole. From what I have heard, it seems to be the best medicine you can buy to put in your water column that can get at the internal parasites. I think that you are either suffering from an internal bacterial or parasitic infection...and thus very, very hard to treat, especially when the fish will not eat. If they do not have the metrodinazole, check for some kanacyn (kanamycin) instead of maracyn (erytromycin) which some bacterial strains are immune to. This may be far fetched, but I don't see anything else you could possibly do right now to help this fish.

Overdosing on the maracyn probably isn't a good thing. I'd try cutting the pills in half.

In addition to the antibacterial food, grab some pepso food as well, for internal parasites, just to be safe. Read the directions carefully about feeding however.

HTH, and that the little gourami pulls through.

 

[Sharpy]

I was given this link in a forum I tried while my female was sick

http://www.petfish.net/swimbladder_betta.htm

I didnt really have time to try any of it, just thoguht I'd post it for you to have a look at

 

[dskidmore]

Would it be better to put an ill lungfish in shallower water, or keep up as much volume as possible?

 

[dskidmore]

I was given this link in a forum I tried while my female was sick

http://www.petfish.net/swimbladder_betta.htm

I didnt really have time to try any of it, just thoguht I'd post it for you to have a look at

Epsom Salts? That's one I've never heard of before on fish. Any opinons on it? It also suggests that my current salt treatment may be counter-productive.

 

[Devilishturtles]

I don't think your fish is suffering from Swim Bladder Disease, but rather an internal infection that is infecting it's swim bladder. Have you checked on the meds I suggested?

There are many threads here on the use of Epsom Salts to treat constipation. If you do a quick search of the forums, you're bound to find much information on peoples uses of it.

Would it be better to put an ill lungfish in shallower water, or keep up as much volume as possible?

Is your fish making any attempt to get to the water surface? If you do this, you will also have to combat other things, such as measuring out the right amounts of medication, temperature flucuations, and rising ammonia levels, in a much smaller water amount.

 

[dskidmore]

Call up a lfs in the area and see if they carry a medicine called metrodinazole. From what I have heard, it seems to be the best medicine you can buy to put in your water column that can get at the internal parasites. I think that you are either suffering from an internal bacterial or parasitic infection...and thus very, very hard to treat, especially when the fish will not eat. If they do not have the metrodinazole, check for some kanacyn (kanamycin) instead of maracyn (erytromycin) which some bacterial strains are immune to. This may be far fetched, but I don't see anything else you could possibly do right now to help this fish.

That is very helpful. I was looking for an internal parasite medicine, but everything I saw at the first pet store was for external parasites or a food. I'll try the little specialty place and see if they have that.

Overdosing on the maracyn probably isn't a good thing. I'd try cutting the pills in half.

I'll try it then. Especially since this is turning into a long term treatment.

In addition to the antibacterial food, grab some pepso food as well, for internal parasites, just to be safe. Read the directions carefully about feeding however.

HTH, and that the little gourami pulls through.

pepso? The directions on the medicated food say to feed it exclusively. Doesn't it defeat the purpose if you're feeding two different ones?

 

[dskidmore]

I don't think your fish is suffering from Swim Bladder Disease, but rather an internal infection that is infecting it's swim bladder. Have you checked on the meds I suggested? .

I think I agree, but it can't hurt to investigate other possibilities. The pudginess of the fish was the first suggestion to me of parasites before any real symptoms developed. It is possible they were at peace with their parasites until the stress of the move depressed their immune system. I will try to get to the store this evening to look for different medications.

There are many threads here on the use of Epsom Salts to treat constipation. If you do a quick search of the forums, you're bound to find much information on peoples uses of it.

Constipation does seem unlikely, as I have not changed the diet of these fish.

Would it be better to put an ill lungfish in shallower water, or keep up as much volume as possible?

Is your fish making any attempt to get to the water surface? If you do this, you will also have to combat other things, such as measuring out the right amounts of medication, temperature flucuations, and rising ammonia levels, in a much smaller water amount.

No, I have not seen her going to the surface, and I have only seen her healither mate do it once. Hence my having stuck with more water. If she makes it a few days longer, I can set up the 10 gallon with the same volume of water more spread out, or increase the water volume.

 

[dskidmore]

Found metronidazole in two forms, nither of them solo.

One is Jungle's Parasite Clear, that also has praziquantel; N[[(4-Chlorophenyl)amino]carbon 1]-2; 6-difluorobenzamide; and acriflavine.

The other is gel-tek's Ultra Cure PX, that also has praziquantel; and Flubenol. The gel-tek is a food, so the female won't benifit from it, but the male should.

Use both? Just jungle tabs in QT, use food as preventative on the healthy ones? Quit the Maracyn 2?

I did not find the recomended antibiotic.

 

[dskidmore]

The gel-tek food is not being accepted by any of the fish other than the angel. Even she doesn't eat it all, just a few drops. The rest of the fish will swim right into the droplets and do not seem to notice.

The Jungle tabs and salt are currently the only treatments since the tabs contain an antibiotic as well, and I'm not sure it's compatable with the first antibiotic.

I'm having to do alot more water changes with two of them in the QT. I'm hoping that my readings are a bit high due to the use of Prime, but I'm changing the water as if the readings are correct. More salt and Prime go in each water replacement.

The male is getting worse, and the female isn't getting better. Is someone going to tell me that Gouramis take a fall hibernation? I've never seen a fish be this sick so long and still pushing water through it's gills. (We're on day 10 for the female.)

 

[Devilishturtles]

I wish it was fall hibernation for you...but it's not. See if you can find the kanamycin. It could be possible that you have an erythromycin immune bacterial infection...since its so commonly used to treat them. That's the only explanation I can think of. If you find the kanamycin, ditch the parasite clear and treat with that.

That's the best advice I can give.
HTH