New Angelfish Deaths, Help!

[aveldina]

1~What type of fish is afflicted? In addition, please describe what is wrong with the fish to the best of your ability (i.e. cotton like growth, bloated, etc.).
Angelfish Dying (were veiled angels)

2~What are your tank parameters (ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, temp, pH)? Please give exact values.
am: 0
nitrI: 0
nitrA: 10ppm
tmp: 81
pH: 7.6

3~ How large is the tank? How long has the tank been set up?
36G, 8 weeks

4~What type of filtration are you using? Please give the name and number (i.e. Fluval 304) and amount of gph if known.
Aqua Clear 50

5~How many fish are in the tank? What kinds of fish are they and what are their current sizes?
pre angels: 7 Red Eye Tetra, 6 Cory Catfish all young

6~When is the last time you did a water change and vacuum the gravel? How often do you do this? How much water do you remove at a time?
before 1st angel death: 1 week, 2nd angel death happened after this weekend's water change

10-15% once per week using siphon (gravel vacuumed also)
7~How long have you had the fish? If the fish is new, how did you acclimate it/them?
1st angel died after 24 hours, used the float in bag method to acclimate over ~ 2 hours.

8~Have you added anything new to the tank--decor, new dechlorinator, new substrate, etc.?
No.

9~What kind of food have you been feeding your fish, have you changed their diet recently?
flake, cat fish pellets (that my tetras LOVE and steal), frozen bloodworms

Basic Description:
Bought 2 angelfish from Petland Saturday. Spoke to many people before hand and was told they believed their pH was around 7. They were veiled angel fish. Both seemed okay after bringing them home, they calmly swam around.
Within 24hrs lost 1st angelfish. Tested water and Am/NI was zero, NA at 15. Took the fish back to petland. The person working couldn't help me figure out what had happened. They had very few veiled angels left so we brought home a regular angelfish. We watched them very closely the rest of the evening.
This afternoon, so 2 days, we lost the second veiled angelfish. The only thing I noticed in the morning was that it didn't seem hungry. It was dead by the time I got home from work.
So I took this fish back to ask if the store knew what the problem was and I spoke to a different person this time. He immediately told me the pH was the problem and said they run a 6.5 pH in their angelfish tank with "lots and lots of driftwood and RO water". He asked me if I can add more driftwood.. I already have two pieces and no more space. So he suggested I either use RO water or just buy chemical to alter the pH.
I've read using chemical isn't a good idea? He seemed to think that would be just fine and I didn't have any good reasons to back up my choice of refusing to change the pH using chemical.

The last angel in the aquarium is still doing okay but if it really was pH that killed the other two then I'm not really sure what to do. I bought RO water tonight and did a small (7%) water change using almost all RO water (some tap water to bring up the temperature). It seems to have made a very small change in my pH, and I have another 11L of RO water in a pail with a heater to try and bring up the temperature over the next day or so as the water was very cold.

Basically I'm looking for some advice.. would pH cause fish deaths like this? If local petstores are making major changes to their pH, is there anything I can do? It seems like I'm going to be stuck with using RO water or some other method to bring down my city's locally high pH (~8.4). I've never had this issue before, what do I do!?

 

[ebon]

I know it's late I am new to this forum and was just reading about your dilema in sept about your angels. I had angels for a long time and I think it was your ph. What you need to is naturally reduce the ph. If you soften the water you will change the ph. You can do htis by and a water softening pillow. They are rechargable. Alot betterr than chemicals. You could also use peat and put it in your media part of your filter or tannins that you can but that you add to water during a water change. Keeping a saftwater tank is difficult so if you get the ph at 6.8 thats great don't try any lower because that change could be difficult to maintain. ro waterr is great for every fish but try the natural ways to lower ph.

 

[bs6749]

I know it's late I am new to this forum and was just reading about your dilema in sept about your angels. I had angels for a long time and I think it was your ph. What you need to is naturally reduce the ph. If you soften the water you will change the ph. You can do htis by and a water softening pillow. They are rechargable. Alot betterr than chemicals. You could also use peat and put it in your media part of your filter or tannins that you can but that you add to water during a water change. Keeping a saftwater tank is difficult so if you get the ph at 6.8 thats great don't try any lower because that change could be difficult to maintain. ro waterr is great for every fish but try the natural ways to lower ph.

One thing I can say for CERTAIN is that it wasn't the pH that killed the angelfish. The fish were tank bred (he stated veils) and were most likely accustomed to a higher pH and hardness.

I'm confused on your reasoning about reducing the hardness "naturally". You say that adding a water softening pillow with "naturally" reduce the hardness of the water and that it's much better to do it this way than with "chemicals". First, how many water softening pillows do you think there are in the wild that reduce the water hardness? I'll go ahead and answer that for you...ZERO. Secondly, how do you think the water softening pillows work? You do realize that there are "CHEMICALS" inside of the pillows that are removing hardness don't you? Or do you think there is some magical potion inside that turns one element into another or simply into nothing at all? Matter cannot be created or destryoyed. Also, how do you think that the water gets softer in nature if not with "chemicals" excreted by peat and driftwood. I hope you realize that such a derogatory use of the word "chemicals" shows extreme ignorance on your behalf.

Also, RO water, with a near neutral pH and a very low hardness is not good for ALL fish as you claim. I can give you thousands of examples where it's not the case: African cichlids from the three rift lakes, and how about developing fry? Many breeding experts grow their discus juveniles (soft water fish in the wild) in harder water to promote better bone structure and growth.

 

[aveldina]

The fish were tank bred (he stated veils) and were most likely accustomed to a higher pH and hardness.

This is what I expected which is why I was surprised he claimed it was pH. But if they are running their tank pH as low as 6.5, would the fish end up accustomed to the lower pH? I talked to a couple of local petstores last night and both were either using a powder to set the pH at 7 or using RO water in the tanks.

Could I do a 50/50 tap to RO and get away with lowering the pH over time using that method?

 

[bs6749]

You could lower the pH using RO water but it isn't the pH that killed your angels.

 

[Algenco]

First, increase the water changes to 40-50% Weekly.
The fish were sick when you bought them, they may not have shown signs, but my bet is the were ill.

This is a great example of the importance of a quarantine tank, since most don't have the extra tank I suggest that any new fish should be dip treated with Acriflavin or Methylene blue, not a guaranteed cure all but it will help.

Assume that all fish you buy are sick and take steps to protect the tank inhabitants.
Most are because of the stress of shipping and handling by the large wholesalers.

 

[aveldina]

I managed to pick up a 10G tank at a grand opening sale this weekend so I'd like to use it as QT in the future, if i can figure out how to setup one when needed. My biggest issue is space as I live in an apartment. I can't leave a QT tank set up when it's not needed, and finding space for it will be difficult.

For water changes, 40-50% weekly seems really high? What is the reasoning for changing that much water every week?

 

[bs6749]

If it's planted you may be able to get away with changing no water or changing out 10-15 gallons every 3-4 weeks. Any more that that is not necessary IMO.

For setting up a QT tank, just keep it bare bottom. Also, go out and buy a sponge filter and and airpump. You can keep the sponge filter in the main tank and transfer it to the QT tank when needed. It really won't be a "QT tank" under those circumstances, more of a "hospital tank". A QT tank should be composed of all new and never used equipment as even old sponge filters may harbor parasites and the like. Simply give the sponge filter a thorough rinsig when you are done with the QT tank and put it back in the main tank. You will have an instantly cycled tank when you transfer the seeded sponge to another tank, including the QT tank.

 

[Algenco]

Been doing this for over 40 years, I raise thousands off Angels per year.

Young angels get 50% 3x week


The solution to pollution is dilution

I have 14 tanks, 6 are planted

The problem is that by the time the fish get to your tank they have ben through 2-4 distributors and if they are lucky they got fed twice in there 2 week+ ordeal

 

[aveldina]

I lost the last one today while I was at work. I seriously give up, this is frustrating. My tetras and catfish are doing just fine, I don't understand what the problem is.

I was really interested in keeping the angelfish, but if it's not the pH then I have no idea what caused them to die after 1-2 days and I don't want to bring home anymore that will just die (QT tank or not).

I have the filter from the 10G I just bought up and running on my main tank so that I'll have a QT tank ready for when I need it. Any suggestions for a type of fish I could keep other than angels?

 

[Algenco]

I lost the last one today while I was at work. I seriously give up, this is frustrating. My tetras and catfish are doing just fine, I don't understand what the problem is.

I was really interested in keeping the angelfish, but if it's not the pH then I have no idea what caused them to die after 1-2 days and I don't want to bring home anymore that will just die (QT tank or not).

I have the filter from the 10G I just bought up and running on my main tank so that I'll have a QT tank ready for when I need it. Any suggestions for a type of fish I could keep other than angels?

I've lost maybe 1-2 angels that I purchased in the past 10 years.

Pick fish that are perky, fins erect swimming good, bright eyes.
Stay away from the ones that want to hide or seem timid.
Keep the tank pristine, feed as soon as they will eat, use frozen foods for the first week, I prefer blood worms, keep temps above 80.
They are best kept alone or with fish that will not harass them

 

[aveldina]

I've asked on my city's aquarium society board and people local to my area are telling me they have no problems keeping angelfish in the pH of the local water. The more I hear the more I wonder if the person I spoke to at petland just gave me an easy answer since ammonia/nitrite was zero when he tested my water.

I do have bloodworms, my red eye tetras destroy frozen blood worm cubes! Do you always buy them in cubes? I've noticed the petstores here also sell them in frozen sheets. Cheaper I'd assume..?

 

[Algenco]

I buy them in the flat packs, cheaper

 

[rob28]

the cottony stuff is highly likely to be a fungus of some sort, and the bloating is probably bacterial.

my advice is to treat with myracan 2.

 

[aveldina]

I'd assume you just cut it up to feed it then? How much do you recommend to feed at a time?

Cottony stuff..?