Please help with suggestions..betta fin rot?

[goose]

Being naive in this whole arena I thought I might be able to get some help here..I my Betta in a 5.5 gallon Hex tank with a biowheel. Have had the betta for about 3 months now doing a change of about 1 1/2 gallon a week as well as taking out uneaten food and waste via a turkey baster.

Anyways..ever since I got him from Walmart he has what I would describe as "tattered fins"...

I have included some pics of him...first one is from about 2-3 weeks ago...the last 3 were just taken...I assume he has fin rot as his fins are growing smaller and smaller and I see pieces of them floating around the tank when I clean it.....it has really accelerated this past week. His appetite is fine and he still darts all over the tank like he has since day one.

Today I added my first dose of MELAFIX today....was recommended by a guy at Petsmart..he seemed to be pretty knowledable about bettas. I have read a lot of people who said that melafix has worked great and just as many who say that the stuff is awful and kills bettas....I think the truth is somewhere inbetween....

SO...I have stopped using the filter while I treat the fish...yes? No? also will not do any type of water change until dosage is complete....I must admit that I only clean once a week and do not remove waste or uneaten food until I do that cleaning......could this have contributed to the fin rot?


Please examine the pics and give some advice on a course of action..any advice or constructive criticism accepted...Any comments on Melafix or othere treatments for fin rot also appreciated


Goose(sad)

[/img]

He has always had a bit of red in his front fins(the ones that hang down) but as you can see in the pics it looks like it has spread...saw a bit in his tail tonight also

Oh water temp is 80 degrees

Please help

 

[An t-iasg]

Hi goose,
I used to have a betta in an Eclipse hex tank. In my opinion, the water flow is a bit strong for a betta. Some bettas seem fine with it, judging from others' posts about their bettas in the hex tank, but the bettas I put in there always seemed uncomfortable, and stress can lead to finrot.

Tattered fins on a betta can be caused by many things. I see that you have a heater and the temperature is 80 degrees. That's good - that's a good temperature for a betta. Some bettas are just more prone to fin tattering than others. I had some bettas that always had some degree of fin degradation, and others who never got even the slightest tear.

A few of my bettas did react adversely with Melafix. I do believe that there are better meds for bettas. Just watch your betta in case he looks stressed.

What are you doing with the bio-wheel if you aren't running the filter? If it dries out, any beneficial bacteria will die. Is your tank cycled? Do you know your water parameters? Maybe some ammonia or nitrite is present in the tank, and that can lead to stress, which leads to finrot.

Your water change routine looks ok - most of us do not remove uneaten food every day, just at a water change. However, if that much uneaten food is fouling the tank, you can feed less. A betta only needs about 4 pellets a day. Instead of a turkey baster, though, you can use a gravel vac. I have one that's 6 inches long and about an inch wide, so it's just the right size. I got it from Petsmart's website. It will remove detritus (waste) on the bottom a lot better than a turkey baster.

I would do some water tests, and verify the parameters. Ammonia and nitrite should be 0, and nitrates should be no more than 20 ppm. Use a gravel vac to clean the tank more efficiently. Don't overfeed, and make sure the water temperature stays stable at 80 degrees. A degree of fluctuation here and there is normal, but it should be within a degree or two of 80 degrees at all times.

When the water parameters are stable, that should go a long way to healing his fins. Melafix may help, if he isn't stressed by it, but if the water isn't kept clean and ammonia-free, he may come down with finrot again.

A medicine I have used when finrot got bad is Jungle Fungus Eliminator. I have had good luck with this medicine.

One more thing I thought of - are the plants silk? I think I recognize that as a silk plant. Does it have any sharp plastic pieces that could hurt the fins? One time I had some silk plants but they had sharp plastic flowers on them. Make sure nothing in the tank could be snagging his fins.

 

[Umberle]

In addition to an t-iasg's advice, betta's that spend a lot of time in those little cups in the store often start out with tattered fins and it takes a little while to heal up. You do have to be careful giving melafix, I hear, to fish with labyrinth organs including bettas and gourami.

I'd see if I could slow the intake on the filter by putting a sponge on the intake if I were you or just turn it off and do PWCs. Which would help with the stress

Also, what are your water paramaters? Ammonia, Nitrites, etc.

 

[An t-iasg]

You can try to slow the water flow but be careful. I tried also and I ended up slowing the bio-wheel too much, which caused water to back up behind the biowheel and spill out the back, dripping down the light cord! 8O I think about all you can do with the Eclipse filters is to put a sponge or pantyhose over the intake stem. Be very careful with modifying the biowheel apparatus.

 

[goose]

Thanks for the info...

I went to Petco this morning to ask some more questions about fin rot...woamn working in the fish dept had no clue at all....she walked me over to Betta Fix...well I already have the melafix and I had told her that I ended up getting some Jungle Gungus Clear, Jungle Fungus Correct PH 7.0 and some Mardel Maracyn-Two. I also picked up some Aquarium Salt.

When I got home I change out about 3/4 of a gallon of his water and added 1/2 a tablet of the Correct PH 7.0. Fizzed up and when I tested the water it was down to between 6.8 and 7.0. Last time I had tested it was very dark blue..7.6 or higher.

He has never seemed to be bothered by the biowheel filter before....It really doesn't have too much force except right in front of it.

Allright here is what is going on....opinions as I'm a real novice at this....

After I changed out the water I started up the filter again and decided to use the Maracyn-Two..I decided on this after reading how it is compatible with biofilters and no need to pull out filter unless it is newer than 6 days....instructions call fo 2 tablets the first day for a 10 gallon tank...I used 1 and plan on cutting a pill in half for the next 5 days.

Other than the rot he seems like a pretty happy guy...in fact he has spent the better part of this afternoon building a bubble nest...no change in appetite although I will cu back on the amount I feed him.


Right course of action or should I have tried the Jungle Fungus clear first? Will I be able to see the diff to see if the Maracyn-2 is working?

Advice on where to go from here




fwiw I took out that silk plant that had the black crud on it and tossed it.....will the extra space in the tank stress a betta out?


PS Should I add any salt?

 

[An t-iasg]

pH chemicals are not generally recommended. They do lower the pH, but then often the pH will just rise again. This rise and fall of pH could stress the fish. The pH lowering chemicals are usually acid-based, so you're putting an acid in your aquairum that could potentially harm the fish. A pH of 6.8 to 7.8 is fine; it is the stability of the pH that we are concerned about. The pH could be 6.8, 7.8, or anywhere in between, but the most important thing is that it stays stable. You may think the pH chemical will help it stay stable but it really just makes it fluctuate.

Water changes once a week will also help the pH remain stable. The fish wastes are acidic and can lower the pH a bit. When you do a water change, you replace the natural mineral buffers in the water that keep the pH stable (and you remove fish waste too!) Since you said your pH dropped to 6.8 from 7.6, maybe it's time for a water change. Do you know if the ammonia is high?

Maracyn 2 is fine - it did help my bettas. It can kill off some of your beneficial bacteria, though, so be prepared to do some extra water changes if you detect a small ammonia spike. The Maracyn 2 should help, but as I mentioned before, the water must be clean (no detectable ammonia or nitrites), and kept at a stable temperature or the finrot could come back.

It's good that he's still active. My one betta that had chronic finrot always built bubble nests and he actually lived the longest of all my bettas. The plant that you removed - the betta will like a place to hide, so if you have other plants in there, that's fine. If not, you can pick up some new silk plants the next time you're at the lfs. When I had silk plants, I usually replaced them every 4-6 months - depending on how long they took to get discolored and cruddy.

Salt is really not necessary. (Some livebearers like mollies do appreciate a bit of salt in their water, but we're talking about a betta! ) It's just one more thing to add and keep track of. It really doesn't contribute anything to the water quality. Regular water changes are your best bet in keeping and maintaining a good water quality.

 

[goose]

Ok I think I did a classic case of trying to do too much at once and am probably harming him more than helping him.

Within the last day or so I have added a dose of Melafix, changed out about 3/4 of a gallon of water, added the PH balancer chemical, given him a tablet of Maraycyn-2 and a tablespoon of aquarium salt. I have taken that plant out leaving him with just a small plant and have the biowheel filter running. This morning I added another 1/2 tablet of the Maracyn-2. The water still smells of the Melafix a bit

The filter does not blow him all over the tank but he seems more active while it is on....

He usually sleeps at night on top of the heater and will come over to the opening when I come down and turn on the light. Hew ouldn't eat this morning and he looked a bit gray...a couple of times he stopped swimming and sat on the bottom for a minute and then he would swim again.


Like I said before I think I tried to do too much at once and by not really knowng I think I am causing more harm than good.

While trying to recover from fin rot should I kill the biowheel filter? I feel like I am in a rock and a hard place as on one hand I don't want the medicine to be filtered out(even though Mardel says it won't be affected) but I don't want to kill the good bacteria on the wheel as you stated above. Does the pressure from the filter cause harm by making him swim more actively thus placing greater pressure on his already tattered fins?

I'm at a loss right now on what I should do and feel badly Even with the fin rot he was perky and active....now I think I am poisioning him...is it too late to help him? maybe move him to a fresh tank and start from scratch with the Maracyn 2 or the Jungle Clear?

PS Sorry for all the rambling questions..I just feel really badly and want to do the right thing here for him.

 

[An t-iasg]

That's another reason I don't like Melafix - that strong odor! I would do a water change if you can still smell it. Do a few small water changes (one every day should be fine) for a few days to get the pH chemical, salt, and Melafix out of the water. That's a lot of additives to be giving the little guy!

When you say move him to a fresh tank, do you have another tank besides the Eclipse hex? I didn't like this tank for bettas - some people said their bettas were fine in it and I believe them but the bettas I put in it never seemed happy. The biowheel and the currents it makes could be contributing to his stress. There's no way to tell unless you get another tank, and even then it could take awhile - fins grow back slowly.

Are the tips of the fins black? That's when finrot needs medicated. Tatters may not always need medicine. Stable water parameters will help heal the fins. I really would stop all the medicine dosing for now (unless the fins are black-tipped or tearing rapidly).

What I did with my Eclipse hex was to remove the biowheel assembly and just use a sponge filter with an airpump. The betta was happier with this setup. If you did this, you could then evaluate your betta to see if he needs medicine. The tears should rapidly heal - the new "skin" will smooth over the rough fin edges and it will look a little bit clear or whitish. The color will return, although his coloring could be a little different than before. Although the rough edges will smooth themselves rather quickly, the fins may take a month or more (depending on how severely they eroded) to attain their full length again.

So - try to modify his environment and see how he acts. Go with the medicine (I would try the Fungus Eliminator) only if he shows no improvement in his fins.

 

[goose]

Thank you for the advice....let me ask this 1st off...today when I got home I noticed that the entire tank seems to be "cloudy".. it looks like this wispy filem has attached itself to almost everything in the tank. I think I have heard that this film or cloud is a by product of using the Maracyn-Two...it feels pretty slimey to boot. Is this stuff harmful to the betta?

On a good note..my betta seems very active and alert..he comes up to the glass and looks out at me.

His fins don't look black per say but they are pretty tattered and are getting smaller...

I'm about to put my 3rd dose of the M-2 in tomorrow morning...should I have seen some progress by now?

My other tank would just be his 1/2 gallow bowl I bought originally when I got him

Thanks!

 

[zacusmaximus]

I've never seen Maracyn-2 cause any kind of film, but it does make the water cloudy.

 

[goose]

hmmmm...I wonder what that stuff is then?...I'll try to get a pic of it tonight..I just assumed it was from the M-2...wasn't there yesterday morning but was there last night.

If I do decide to move him will going to a smaller tank stress him out? IF I do it I may go to a 2.5 gallon tank..I think that is the smallest I can go and still use a heater?

 

[goose]

Ok I went out and got a Mini Bow 2.5 gallon tank. I have added 3 silk plants and a ceramic bridge that he can hide under. I am choosing not to use the whisper filter as I do not want any added motion to the water.

I used tap water and added some Jungle Start right tablets that Conditions the water and takes out the nastys in tap water(so they say)

I also bought a small heater at Walmart and have it in there although I don't think that it is strong enough...it has only heated the water up a couple of degrees in about an hour(about 64 right now)

I have a 25 watt one in the hex tank but I think that would be too much juice for a 2.5 gallon tank? The one I have in the 2.5 tank now is a 7.5 watt.

I think it is a lot nicer setup for him but I guess he will be the judge of that. his 5.5 gallon tank is barren except for 1 tiny plant...he looks sad.

His tail fins do not look like they are getting any better with the M-2...in fact now I can see red spots on the edges of his fins although he is still alert and perky and comes up to the glass when I came over to him.

Well I hope I don't kill him by putting him in a new tank once the water gets warmer....I think the best this tank may do is 75

What kills ME is I see Bettas in bowls at work that seem like they dont get cleaned as often as they should, non heat regulated water and they seem to have zero problems...something aint right there lol

Should I start the Jungle Fungus clear or wait a bit?

 

[An t-iasg]

Hi goose,

The filmy, cloudy substance could have been from the meds you're using. I have heard that Maracyn 2 can cause a filmy substance in hard water. It could also be the oils from Melafix.

I would start the Fungus Clear now, especially since he has some red areas on his fins. Can you put the small heater in the bowl? Of course, wait a few hours before adding the betta to make sure it's not going to overheat the bowl. Use the small heater and then use the Fungus Eliminator in the bowl while you get the 2.5 ready, or fix up the 5 with a sponge filter if you are going to do that. I used 1/4 teaspoon of Fungus Clear per gallon. Use a plastic cup to get out a bit of tank water, put the 1/4 teaspoon of medicine in the cup and stir to mix. Dump that medicine water into the tank. Do a 50% water change every day he is in the bowl and add back in 1/8 teaspoon of medicine.

You can put a 25 watt heater in a mini-bow tank. Is it the All-Glass brand, acrylic tank? I have this tank as my QT tank. I do use the filter - look on the bottom and you'll see a triangle-type mark. Slide it toward the smallest part of the triange - I think is has 4 clicks. Set it toward the smallest part - this should be the slowest flow rate.

I also tried to not run the filter in this tank. The heated water did not mix with the other water - I know it sounds weird. I thought thermal currents would keep the heated water mixing around the tank. The thermometer that I had resting on the tank bottom said 75 or so and I reached my hand in and thought the water was warmer than that. I used a digital thermometer and the reading at the top of the tank was higher. So use the filter on low. I did not use any media in the filter. I stretched a clean toe of pantyhose over it so my betta didnt fall in. (Actually he did get in the filter, so that's when I put the pantyhose over the opening!)

I don't use filter media in my minibow, but that's because I use it as a QT tank, and I'm usually using medicine that would kill the biofilter anyway. But - I had trouble cycling this tank - it's so small. Very small tanks, without adequate water flow (which is hard for a betta to tolerate as you know) can be hard to cycle. I would hate to see you set up this tank and go to the trouble only to have it not work out either. I still think your best bet is to either get a regular 5.5 gallon tank, or set the Eclipse up with a sponge filter. I know the Eclipse has a small footprint, and a sponge filter on the bottom would take up a lot of room.

 

[goose]

Ok...here is what I have done...yes it is the Mini Bow 2.5 All Glass brand.

I set up the Min Bow last night....I filled 80% of it with tap water and 20 % with spring water. I put in about 1/2 a tab(a little more than recommended) of Jungle "Start Right Complete Water Conditioner and Decholrinator" I then put in the 7.5 watt heater and let it sit overnight and all day today. When I got home this evening I saw that the water was about 76-78 degrees..that looks like the best this little heater will do for now.

As I said before I am not running a filter in this setup at least for now...I want the stillest water possible while I attempt to get rid of this rot. I had a heck of a time trying to catch him to put him in his new home.....that probably stressed him out even more.

Once I put him in the new tank he got very still...he just sort of hovered a bit and swam slowly around the tank...almost all of it at the surface. He seems to be breathing a bit heavier...in other words his gills are moving in and out more than I noticed before..maybe I'm more anal about his every move now...I think he is taking more breaths of air at the surface also

He is eating a bit..not as much as the other tank but maybe that is natural as he gets used to the new tank. I did a PH test and it is much lower than the other tank...I want to say it is between 6.0 and 6.4...down a bit from 6.8 -7.0


I don't have the liquid Fungus Clear..I just have the tabs...the directions say that 1 tab treats 10 gallons..I broke the tab in half and than in half again. I put a little bit bigger than 1/4 tablet in the tank and it fizzed up and away...it says another dose may be added in 4 days if needed. Should I stick to this or add some each day?

I am getting really nervous about this rot as it gets worse and worse each day...I have included some pics and you can see how his dorsal fin is in real tough shape..notice the red spots

I really hope this Fungus Clear works as this is probably his last chance ...I'm not sure what to do if I don't see any improvement as the rot will probably reach his body by the weekend


Edit: A couple hours later as of this edit...he is eating more and swimming around the tank a bit more...seems a little more lively..maybe just the shock of being netted and put in a new home a little startling?

Man I just emptied out the 5.5 gallon hex...yuck what a mess...it was pretty slimy and had a coating all over everything....yuck

Edit #2..water temp now says 80...I changed out the light that came with the kit with a fluorescent one that was in the 5.5 hex..think it gives a nice light...water already a bit cloudy compared to these pics taken maybe 4 hours ago...maybe from meds?

 

[An t-iasg]

The slime in the hex tank was probably from the Melafix. Acrylic seems to feel slimier than glass!

Since you aren't running any filtration, I would do a water change every day and add back in, approximately, the amount of meds you took out. I remember breaking pills in half and half again. It doesn't matter if it's not perfect - just divide it the best you can. The directions say to use for 4 days before a water change if I remember right. I would use it for 4 days but with water changes every day. You can give a second course of treatment for 4 more days if necessary.

Another med to look for if this doesn't work - kanamycin, an antibiotic. Seachem makes a kanamycin-based med called Kanaplex.

What wattage of light do you have over the 2.5 now? Is it the 10 watt that came with the 5 gallon hex? This may end up being too much light for this tank. You don't want to be battling algae along with everything else. I didn't even run a light with this tank. I didn't trust the open bulb cover, unless they've changed it since I bought mine a few years ago. Also, if the light seems to add heat to the water, be careful that the temperature doesn't swing too much when the light is turned off.

Your water will be a bit cloudy due to the meds and the fact that you aren't using the filter. After the treatment is over, an extra water change or two should clear things up. You can choose not to use the filter after the treatment, but you will be doing water changes more often - probably every other day. Even if you do run the filter, you may be doing extra changes depending on the ammonia level and if the tank cycles. If the betta is happy without the filter, I would just do the extra water changes. The tank is small enough that it won't take long.

 

[goose]

I think it is a 15 watt bulb but it is not the one that came with either tank. I bought it on the recommendation I think I may have read here that it shows more light than an incandescent bulb but not as much heat. It does seem to heat the tank up juts a bit..maybe 2 degrees when it is on for awhile. What would you suggest? 25% water change? if so my calculation come out to 2 1/4 cups to change daily.

So you did a total of 8 days of treatment is necessary it appears..is it possible to OD on the meds?

I may see what is the smallest hang on the back filter I can get although I may try the one that came with the tank on the slowest setting also and see if it is too strong for him

Thanks for all your help!

fwiw His dorsal fin looks better today...the red spot is gone(I hope it didnt rot away!) and the tip still looks a bit stringy but a whiteish clear color...I had a hard time seeing any red on his tail either...maybe the meds work that quickly??

Is there a difference between the Fungus Eliminator and the Fungus Clear? I see you said in another thread that the Eliminator is a powder where the Eliminator is in the tablet...same stuff just different format?

 

[An t-iasg]

Yes, I caught the Fungus Clear/Eliminator too. I'm up too late sometimes...I just read Fungus Clear in your post and typed it!

The Fungus Eliminator is a powder. I have never used Fungus Clear. The Maracyn is a tablet that I have had to divide in half or more. The Fungus Eliminator has an antibiotic in it also. Fungal infections can be accompanied by a secondary bacterial infection, so the combo of fungus/antibiotic in the Fungus Eliminator is good. If the Fungus Clear has an antibiotic also, and you've mastered dividing the tablets for a dose in a small tank, then go ahead and use it.

I don't think using the medicine for 8 days is an overdose, but it is a lot of medicine. In some cases, like yours, I believe, it may be necessary. That's why I would suggest a small water change every day while adding a bit of med only for the volume of water removed. (It's easier with the powder.) The directions say not to change water between doses. In a larger tank, with some water movement, and non-labyrinth fish, this may be ok. In a small betta tank, I would feel better doing some extra water changes.

If the red spot is gone, that's a very good sign! The whitish edges are a sign of healing too, but the length/color may take longer to get back to the way it was.

When I changed water in this tank, I filled up a gallon bottled water jug with tap water and let it sit to age for a day. I changed a half gallon one day and the other half gallon the next day, then refilled the jug again for the next changes. A gallon is 16 cups.

Incandescent bulbs do produce a lot of heat. Over a small tank, it would be a lot of heat. A fluorescent bulb would be better as long as it's not too bright. Bettas don't like very bright light, and it would be better for him now, to reduce his stress, if you didn't have a bright light. 15 watts of light over that tank is almost guaranteed to grow algae. The 10 watt might be too bright too (the one that came with the hex) but you could try and see if it would fit in the 2.5's hood. I remember seeing 4, 7, and 9 watt compact fluorescent bulbs on the internet (bulbs.com and bulbman.com) when I was looking for household halogen bulbs.

 

[crazyred]

FWIW, the Jungle Fungus Clear does have an antibiotic in it. I just bought some for my betta (I couldn't find the Eliminator powder), but this tablet has nitrofurazone, furazolidone, and potassium dichromate It describes it as being anti-bacterial and anti-fungal.

I think it will work.....I hope.

 

[An t-iasg]

Thanks for posting that, crazyred - it's good to know!

 

[crazyred]

Not a problem....I had the package on my desk @ work and got the ingredients right off the back. My little rescue is looking and acting better.....I just hope I can get at least some of his tail to grow back. He looks awful strange with long, flowing dorsal and anal fins and no tail. 8O I also think it's weird that his tail is so jacked up, but all the rest of his fins are perfect looking. STRANGE.....