Treating a show style chocolate/ panda oranda

[ktomminello]

I feel so guilty about this I have to ask for opinions. I currently have 'rescued' a few larger fish specimens from very poor living conditions and had originally kept them together in their original tank to treat them all at the same time along with trying to make things less stressful for the fish.

I have them all to a point now where they are healthy enough to act like themselves- 2 SD pacu, a four lined pictus and a 3 1/2 inch (not including fins) chocolate with panda markings oranda gold fish. Now that I have them on the mend the oranda has been targeted, for obvious reasons, and has suffered a couple fin nips and a small lesion on his side. I have a 90g hex waiting for him, the only problem is- his infections. I have a few long finned dither fish and some larger bodied tetras and a small red capped white oranda, so the only option I had (matured and stable rehab tank) was my 5g. I don't like to see him in there but he's getting better and he doesn't seem to mind at all.. Do you guys think it would be okay to treat him in this 5g holder tank for a week so I can have peace of mind releasing him to my other tank or do you think it will stress him out too much to be that confined??

Waiting for your opinions- please don't be too critical any help with ideas about how to handle this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!!

 

[Cactuspixie]

Hi, I can't help, I'm sorry, but if you post this in the unhealthy fish forum, there are some very experienced goldfish keepers who can advise you.

 

[ktomminello]

Hi, I can't help, I'm sorry, but if you post this in the unhealthy fish forum, there are some very experienced goldfish keepers who can advise you.

Thanks that's what I meant to do but my mobile version of this site is being really weird. I will try to move it, lol.

 

[jlk]

A 5g tank is impossibly small for him and may further stress him. If the filter is cycled, move it to a Rubbermaid-type bin and add some additional aeration and/or filtration. A 15-20g runs for under $10 at any big chain store.

What exactly are you treating him with? Do you mean panda markings as in black? A pic will help to see what is going on here!

 

[ktomminello]

A 5g tank is impossibly small for him and may further stress him. If the filter is cycled, move it to a Rubbermaid-type bin and add some additional aeration and/or filtration. A 15-20g runs for under $10 at any big chain store.

What exactly are you treating him with? Do you mean panda markings as in black? A pic will help to see what is going on here!

Yes about the black markings on the oranda. The tail, dorsal and first pectoral fins are black, all secondary fins are white and his cap is black and chocolate.

I can't post anymore pics in forum and my droid won't let me post to profile. I don't plan on keeping him in there I just want to treat him for lesions before I centerpiece him in my 90g hex. I just don't want to hurt my stock in the 90g which has been cycled and balanced for 4 days with longfin dither fish and a red capped white oranda baby... Do you think that one week for treatment would cause that much damage? He was in a 55g bow front with pacu, pictus catfish, bala sharks and red tailed tinfoil barbs, in pretty poor water conditions. My 5g has 500- 750gph circulation with filtration being external nano canister and internal fluval u3... plus when they outgrow my 90g my mom has a couple indoor ponds waiting because I am taking my giant upside down giant black catfish and my 2 oscars back... should I put him in the 90g and treat the entire tank for a week? Plus I don't think I can afford to treat an entire 90g for a week...

Should I set up my 60g and rehouse/ fish in cycle with my 2 SD pacu, copper veil oscar and single 4 lined pictus and use the 55g bow front to treat him in alone?

 

[ktomminello]

I'm treating him for general poor health due to ignorance. I know when I picked up the tank there was an algae bloom, I was personally surprised anything could live in that water. Ammonia levels were lethal and subdued the Amazon predators to sad looking stressed out weaklings. I've just been keeping water within perfect parameters and using wardley's fin wellness half strength every week. I use prime for water conditioning and I vacuum, change water and monitor constantly- this was an emergency....

 

[jlk]

Considering the conditions he came from, are you sure the black is not ammonia burns? Fins, cap, etc are where the color is most obvious. If he truly has some black/chocolate, it will be very short lived.

Moving your other fish all over seems to be more work than its worth. Pickup a plastic bin and save yourself the hassle! I really can't suggest keeping him in a 5 even short term but if you do, I would change 100% of his water atleast 1-2x a day. I suspect he is going to need more than a week to fully recover and adding any new fish to an established, healthy tank without a couple weeks in qt is never a good idea, IMO.

 

[ktomminello]

Well luckily I have had the time to watch him get better and as of recently I have kept him in pristine conditions since I managed to get the tank parameters there- it's been hourly water changes since I got them here. I've had them for about a week now and I should have moved him to my 30g hospital tank and my oscar with my SDs and pictus but I was afraid of secondary infections on my oscar due to tinfoil barb fin nipping.

My oranda now stresses out when removed from the 5g :-/ I don't get it either lol, but I am used to changing 2g per hour while using it for qt on smaller fish. He's actually healing faster than I thought. When I moved him into the 5g I was already planning to move him to the 90g in the morning when my SDs decided they were healthy enough to show what they really are made of. They had only managed to nip the long fantail and scratch a couple scales.

I REALLY wish I could post pictures!!! I honestly don't think that the black is from ammonia exposure but I think only time will answer that question. He's honestly looking more like a black capped oranda more and more. This morning after I did a 50% water change and vacuum. His scale injuries are healed and his fins are growing back. I've been changing water at 2g per hour. I use prime and healthboost for water conditioning. The only reason why I said one week was because the whole stock has been getting the royal treatment for a week already and today was supposed to be large change and tank upgrade day. I think it's turned into juggle the tanks and species day...

Does anyone have any suggestions? On top of the aforementioned 90g I also have a cycled 60g which was going to be my finalized semi aggressive SE Asian blackwater jungle pool. I also have a 150g that I just need to hardscape which I had planned on using for an Amazon biotope because of my oscar and the SD pacu and 4 lined pictus catfish, but I am not 100% any more and am open to suggestions for rearrangement.

I currently have the oranda in a kiddie pool with 5 U3 filters and barley extract. I may keep him here to treat him. The only thing that is wrong with him is that he was scraped scales and damaged fins which are already healing. I swear I am going to give my husband a heart attack with the random fish containers and fish that are making their way into my livestock list and the amount of acclimate tanks in use right now.

All tanks are set for daily solid removal after feedings (150g, 90g hex, 60g). These are all upgrades from their current 50g, 40g, 2 30g a 20g and a 15g tanks with plants currently floating. Livestock list is

1 four lined pictus
1 5 inch oscar
2 6 inch SD pacu
1 large oranda
1 small oranda
1 red tailed black shark
3 medium clown loaches
4 female rosy barbs
7 large green tiger barbs
1 pair large diamond tetra
1 blue and red Colombian tetra
2 male paradise gourami (4 and 5 inches)
1 6 inch 3 spot gourami
3 male betta
2 female betta
2 gold mystery snail
1 6 inch red cherax lobster

Betta and gourami have been raised together since fry- they school together and stress out when separated.

Plants include those used in SE Asian blackwater and Amazon blackwater biotopes.

Help please!! Thanks in advance

 

[ktomminello]

Update- oranda has bounced back fast. Have placed small red capped white oranda and chocolate oranda (still marked with distinct black and white fins and a black brain looking monster cap now. Removed dither fish and they are now in the kiddie pool) have taken their place in the 90g... All is calm, fish are eating and there is no aggression... I am working on getting the lighting set up and my laptop online again so I can post pics of these guys considering the rarity of his coloration

 

[jlk]

I am glad he is on the mend and would love to see pics when you are able to get them posted! Even if he does not have ammonia burn, don't expect the black/chocolate coloring to stay because it will continue to change. Make sure you get some pics now so you have something to compare him to in a year or so.

 

[ktomminello]

I have a couple pics, but they are kind of blurry. He actually had a slight set back, my tiny little red capped white oranda decided he was not going to play nice and nip a side fin off!! I am in need of plants and decorations- I put 2 banana plants and a large red nymphaea lotus in for a temporary fix, treating with pondzyme and barley extract... Wound looks bad but he's calm now, only thing is I'm keeping him in darkness and I am not sure if that's a good thing or not.

 

[jlk]

Its fine to keep the light off to keep stress minimal. How badly is he injured?


edit- Why are you adding pond chemicals to his tank?

 

[ktomminello]

I'm growing him out for a 90g cold water planted aquarium with another oranda and some hearty and humorous inverts and a maybe a ranchu or lionhead. Right now I am trying decide on what (if any) cold water catfish or schoolers I can keep with the 2 oranda (the more research I do the more I realize that these non pond goldfish will be OK with a 90g-which makes my summer hydroponics project so much easier). I love the water lily and native semi aquatic plants I can find and use.

As far as his injuries- it was mostly superficial scale scrapes and a torn fantail.

Also- I am using dilute pond chemicals because, well, I have found it helps out the transition and healing when preparing pond goldfish and koi from an aquarium setting to a small pond (indoor) for my mom, lol, so I have the stuff laying around and would rather let my fish heal with ideal parameters and natural extracts for this type of nipping/ bullying injury.

That being said, any opinions on that stock for a 90g?

 

[jlk]

I would skip any catfish/sucker type fish. Theres a risk of them either deciding that the goldies are quite tasty or the goldies trying to eat them. For cool water schoolers, either wcm/rosy red minnows or some type of danio may work but theres also the potential for the goldies to eat them.

There should be absolutely no reason for using pond chemicals. Pondzyme is basically the same thing as stresszyme and is just a useless bacterial additive. A cycled tank does not need bacterial additives period. Barley/barley extract is for use in an outdoor pond to try and limit algae naturally. It can also acidify water which is not beneficial to goldfish. If there is an algae issue, the root cause needs to be addressed in order to fix the problem (ie, excess light, excess nutrients, lack of sufficient big wcs).

 

[ktomminello]

Thanks for the info on sucker cats, I have gotten used to goldfish in pond/ river habitats where there isn't a space confinement. My oranda is all healed now- yay!! I added a couple nerita snails and some regular pond snails from my moms, they honestly look like gold and black mystery snails to me.

Oh, and I'll cut out the pondzyme, using it out of habit I guess- but the barley extract is purposefully being used to lower my rock hard calcified water. My tap is ph 7.8 and is horribly high in copper, iron, calcium and zinc- blackwater extract works better, but I was out at the time. I have a southeast Asian blackwater jungle tributary tank I'm upgrading along with finalizing stock and plant lists for a150g Amazon inspired tank and so on and so forth, so I'll be here asking for more advice as I go from incredibly overstocked to final right sized tanks and habitats. I am taking pics as I go and will post links to my Facebook albums once these projects of mine are finalized and when I can access my profile to post in my albums and videos (short summers and I haven't touched my computer in a month) I will definitely share from baby pictures all the way up, I've raised most of these fish from fry- my bettas are from my first experience breeding betta, I kept 3 males and a female from that bubble nest- pico to eco

Do you know of any aquarium sized coldwater plants that may help safe guard the 24k golden wcm? I decided I want a school of 10 of them, and 10 redline danio. I'm adding 3 of each per week until stocked, so I know I'm going to need a bit of ground cover- right now I'm floating duck weed and water sprite and a couple tiger lotus but I had to remove the banana plants because my little red capped was trying to eat them- it was pretty funny to watch though, but if anyone has any suggestions I'm all ears and I thank everyone in advance for any and all input.

 

[jlk]

Nothing wrong with a ph of 7.8 for goldfish. Hard, alkaline water with high ph is preferred and you will find the large majority of serious goldie owners buffering their water up with baking soda or another alternative to reach a ph in the 7.8 to 8+ range.

I like wisteria for a plant suggestion as it can grow quite dense (as well as tall) and is an extremely fast grower. Even if fish do nibble at it, it grows so quickly is doesn't even seem to make a difference.

Glad to hear he is recovering!!

 

[ktomminello]

Nothing wrong with a ph of 7.8 for goldfish. Hard, alkaline water with high ph is preferred and you will find the large majority of serious goldie owners buffering their water up with baking soda or another alternative to reach a ph in the 7.8 to 8+ range.

I like wisteria for a plant suggestion as it can grow quite dense (as well as tall) and is an extremely fast grower. Even if fish do nibble at it, it grows so quickly is doesn't even seem to make a difference.

Glad to hear he is recovering!!

Thanks!!! Absolutely love wisteria!!! I want to to add a single pond waterlily plant in the middle...do you think it'd work in an aquarium?

 

[jlk]

I know some people that have tried water lilies in tanks. Just be careful it doesn't take over the tank and block all light to other plants!

 

[ktomminello]

I know some people that have tried water lilies in tanks. Just be careful it doesn't take over the tank and block all light to other plants!

Thank you for the warning!! I have grown quite a few lotus (nymphaea red and green) and have had success in keeping surface leaves trimmed down and only letting the flowers surface, but I usually get only half sized flowers, but I wind up with very short densely vegetated plants with a flower shoot once or twice a year, and I usually have to split the plants to keep them from over sprawling in the spring- I give the halves to my mom for her seasonal ponds and she usually gets a good lotus display by July. Do you think I'd have the same luck with lilies? I know they are similar, but I know basically nothing about ponds or coldwater tanks on a larger scale- I used to keep fry tanks for my mom and raised them to be about 3 inches in a 30g with a group of 10 cardinal neons in a sterile qt tank with ph of 6.8-7.0, temperature of 70°F-73°F and that's pretty much my hospital tank, so I pretty much have no experience in large goldfish tanks, and I'm finding that they are completely opposite of the majority of my tanks- Southeast Asian blackwater and Amazon basin blackwater aggressive/ semi aggressive and peaceful schooling/ dither fish who are planted and kept at ph 6.5-7.0 and temperature of 76-78°F, and my saltwater tank usually stays at ph 8.2 and temperature of 78°F, regardless, I'm going to have to start reading through the coldwater/ native archives and school myself again, lol... At least ca/ sa cichlids are similar to SE Asian setups parameter wise. Thanks for helping me out and getting me on track for this project- I swear you have saved my gorgeous Cocoa from my obvious ignorance... You'd think someone who can raise giant black catfish, a one eyed iridescent shark and giant oscars I wouldn't have so many problems with fancy adult goldfish in an aquarium as opposed to a pond- didn't realize how different it really is.

 

[jlk]

It's not that hard but fancies inside simply require quite a bit of work! I am going to take a guess here that how you have treated your lotus will basically apply to the lilies. I actually brought a lily rhizome with a few tiny leaves in a few weeks ago due water lettuce overtaking my life but it does not seem very happy inside. Shall see how it does! If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask!