Eternal Propogation?

The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an interest in aquariums or fish keeping!
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

dapellegrini

Aquarium Advice FINatic
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Messages
870
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Another musing of mine... How many times can you clip and replant a trimming from a larger plant? Could I propagate by trimming eternally? If the mother plant was seed-grown, and say 1 year old, then would a trimming start with a biological clock at 1 year, or would it start over?

There must be a scientific study to this end...
 
The only place I have seen anything on this is for fruit trees. I was at a nursery and they actually had about a dozen different fruits trees that were cloned from starts from a healthy fruit producing tree. The starts were done in the middle of the blossom stage of the mother trees. The starts always produced massive numbers of blooms but never produced fruit. The blooms were also a lot later than the others.

Could be similar to aquatic plants if the plant has a "life cycle" but otherwise I wouldn't think so.
 
Interesting. How could an Aquatic Plant not have a life cycle? If you kept it in perfect conditions, wouldn't it eventually die? Even if it took 1000 years, I have to think that it must have a lifespan...
 
Everything has a life span. I would think a new trimming planted grown and recut and replanted and recut over and over again would live and flourish as long as the cycle is repeated. It is propagating and a renewal of a living organism.
 
I just want a rotala with a stem coming out of the substrate thats an inch thick and bushy on top like a pom pom...

:p
 
Well a life span and cycle is different, or I thought so anyway. Fruit trees produce flowers, produce fruit, loose their fruit and leaves and then go dormant for the winter. Flowers produce seeds and then die leaving their seeds to grow the next year. Carnivorous plants need a dormancy cycle of no food and little water or they die.

Maybe aquatic plants have this maybe they don't. I just don't know of any that go through the same type of cycle. I know they would be a real pain in an aquarium if they did.

I do know that there are trees that are well over 1000 years old in this state so I don't know what their "life span" is but it is long.
 
Java fern would be an exception from what I've read/seen. It tends to have a set "lifetime" before it sprouts a ton of small plantlets that grow off of the existing leaves, and then dies. I've read about this and had it happen to me in my tank as well.
 
With a Java Fern the question would be rhizome splitting with new growth and whether you can do that forever...

I just want a rotala with a stem coming out of the substrate thats an inch thick and bushy on top like a pom pom...

lol


Well a life span and cycle is different

Ya, I am probably mixing up my terms a bit. For dormant and nondormant cycles, say you gave the plant whatever its ideal situation was including these cycles, and really regardless of these cycles... and say we all knew that the live span of the plant was 10 years. Say that over the 10 years the plant was trimmed hundreds of times and sent around the world... Would all of the trimming die around the same time the mother plant does?

It doesn't seem like they would, but it is still an interesting biological question... How does propagation effect the life span of the propagated plant?


.
 
Hmm, very intersting. That would be a very intersting study to do and to see the results. It could explain why Water Sprite dies off sometimes and then comes back. Java fern also as I have also seen this die off first hand and both of my plants that came from the same ones died off at about the same time. It did corelate with a temperature change but who knows.

I know every bulb plant I have had went through a massive growth stage, put out masses of leaves and then died off after about 6 months so maybe.

I would also say that any plant allowed to seed has the ptoential to die because of the energy put into seeding out.
 
thats a good question, i was thinking that say your plant is 3 months old and it puts out a new stem/branch, that new branch is brand new?, right, so if you cut it and planted it, it would be "just born", maybe, i can see it both ways
 
You have a flair for provoking intense thought dapellgrini, this one is no exception.

The only way to really know this is to literally do as you posed. I, like 7Enigma, have a java fern mother plant that is very old (I got it from another member almost two years ago). It has produced many babies (which I have given away to other members). I also have an amazon sword that has also been "mother" to many more.

Can clippings live as long as the "mother" plant is something I cannot really judge. Perhaps if one were to monitor from a set date and track them, we could get some idea. I believe aquatic plants are a bit different from terrestrial plants and/or flowers.
 
I think offspring from mother plants, like ferns and swords, are different from cuttings of stem plants.

I'd say that the stem plant cuttings are actually the same plant where the plants from fern and swords are not. The swords and fern actually sprout a new rihzome from which the daughter plants grow. This is more like sexual reproduction, although it is asexual, than with the stem plants. The stem plants are like cutting off your finger and it growing a new you, where the other is sorta like producing a self fertilized egg and growing a different plant from it. Maybe egg is the wrong word as it really skips that step and just produces an embryo kinda thing.

So from that I think the eternal progation question should be focused on stem plants.

I also believe you could correlate stem plants with starfish and ask the same question about them.
 
Animals have a build in genetic clock so cells die after so many divisions, hence a finite life span. Animal clones (eg Dolly the sheep) starts out with "old" cells so don't live as long as the mother. <OTOH, earthworms or starfish that can regenerate parts & clone themselves may not have that limitation ... or maybe not?>

Plants are different. I don't think plants have such a mechanism, so in theory, you should be able to propagate a plant indefinitely. Certainly, most commercially grown land plants are started from cell cultures or cuttings rather than seeds and they *seem* to live just as long .... And geraniums & such had been propagated for generations and each year's cutting grew just fine.

Are all plants like that? Are aquatic plants any different? I don't know, but I would think that it would be similar.
 
Jchillin said:
You have a flair for provoking intense thought dapellgrini, this one is no exception.

Thanks :) ... I think

I agree that my real question real can be boiled down to stem plant trimmings for argument sake... I am trying to make a distinction between what seems to be "natural" propagation (seeds, runners, etc) from trimming and replanting.

BTW... I had no idea that you could cut up starfish like earthworms!
 
Yeah, they had a big problem with starfish here in California. They sent teams of divers with knives to cut down the population. Instead the population exploded and made the problem even worse.

As the question is, I'd say that you could probably eternally propagate stem plants by cuttings. However, on a time scale that long I'm pretty sure your going to see changes in the lines of cuttings.

Example:
You have a stem plant and you take two cuttings.

You send one cutting to someone and they begin taking cuttings as the plant grows. We'll call this line of cuttings A.

You send one cutting to someone else and they begin taking cuttings as the plant grows. We'll call this line of cuttings B.

Over the time frame, Eternity, I would suspect you would see changes between line A and line B due to random genetic mutation. The mutation may not be through out the whole plant but it may be in the part you cut and therefore the cutting would contain the mutation. Remember, even though we are talking about asexual reproduction, no meiosis, there is still mitosis which is still susceptible to replication errors resulting in mutation.

This actually may be the limiting factor in propagation. We find now in numerous pet species that heavy breeding has resulted in shorter lifetimes due to genetic disorders; hamsters and rats get tumors and die much younger that wild specimens. The heavy breeding, or should I say inbreeding, is pretty much the same thing as you are reproducing tissue from the same dna instead of having an influx of fresh dna. There is also particle induced mutation possible as there radioactive particles everywhere.

So is it all the same plant? Yes, but it may not be the same plant it used to be. And, the limits to how many generation of clippings will be determined by luck, or chaos theory if you want to get all crazy about it.

Figure this one out and you'll be able to decide the ethical concerns of cloning.

Just my view on it :p
 
LOL... Good response NoSvOrAx.

So, do you really think that trimmings can mutate/evolve without meiosis? Sounds plausible and I really don't know anything about it, but for whatever reason, I thought that evolution is based on a long series of meiosis-based mutations.

But I guess plants are different in many ways, not the least of which being their lifespan, which can be 1,000's of years for some trees, I believe. Huh... I didn't even know what "meiosis" was until moments ago (tip -- on google, enter "define: " and then the word you need to understand).

So anyways, sounds like your vote is that a trimming is a new plant in the sense that it's life cycle gets reset...
 
heh

Well, I don't think we are talking about true evolution here. I would say it would be more likely you could see a color variation or something like that as the part of the dna chain that controls that aspect becomes damaged or changed. True evolution, with meiosis and natural selection, would actually work much faster, because it would allow dna crossing and weeding out of any undesirable characteristic.

And actually I'm on the other side, I think that cuttings aren't starting over. That it is a continuation of a plant, but the plant may change in time. So it is the same plant, and the same plant as all the other cuttings, but that piece of said plant would be damaged. Now whether the damage was good thing or a bad thing is for time to tell. Which I guess goes back to the original idea: send some cuttings to people and check back in around 50 years. :p

Imagine a stem plant given infinite room and resources to grow. Over a long enough time period you might see that a branch might be growing a slightly different color or some such small difference. Since it is still connected to the main body plant you have to conclude it is the same plant. But it is different. I'm not sure if our language has a term for same and different at the same time, or atleast I don't know what it is.

But honestly, over any reasonable time line, say 100 years, I don't think your likely to see any major change.

So I vote for a possible limiting factor of genetic degradation. Which in an aquatic plant might take a very very very long time to reach. Even in the animal world there are several types of fish and other aquatic life form that we now believe do not have a lifespan. Some of them don't have a growth limiting gene either. And in an aquatic realm there are alot fewer free radicals and free atomic particles which really cuts down on genetic damage. Polluted ground/tap water may be a different story though....

Anyways, keep cutting those stem plants and if your worried about them not being as good as the "parent" send them to me :p
 
Lets call same and different: samerent

You can tell your grandchildren you were here when the weirdest word was coined.

8)
 
Lets call same and different: samerent

I like it. :)

So then trimming aside, you are saying that the parent plant could live eternally, provided ideal conditions... That would answer the entire question if that was true.
 
I think so. Most of the life cycle stuff in all plants relates to seasons. Whether it is temperature, changing water parameters (from seasonal changes in rain fall), or amount of available sun light.

Most of our stem plants come from tropical areas where these changes are not so drastic and therefore we do not see the same kind of cycle we see in things like bulb plants. Some plants may cycle to prevent exactly what we are talking about in order to favor natural selection. This I'm not so sure about.

Personally I think this hygro I got from rich would cover the planet if we let it.
 
Back
Top Bottom