ok... can someone plese tell me how to do the dosing thing!

[mr funktastic]

my tank is fine with my light at 40 watts of t-8 lighting but the second i try to add that 3rd bulb the tank goes to crap. i have a hood that i made myself that can support up to 4 24" t-8 bulbs which are 20 watts a piece. i would love to just get it up to 3 bulbs. this is over my 20 gal tank. i dont dose anything right now. i only dose flourish trace everyonce in a while. when i bump the lighting up to the 60 watts i find my nitrates bottom out. so i am going to buy some nitrogen to dose. but what else should i be looking at? i have heard most people say they dose potassium. but what else should i be looking at. i think i have asked this question a million times but its like i cant retain the answer. so can someone please suggest what i need to be dosing and how do i dose it? dose it say on the bottle how much to add to get a certain level... like dose 1 cap per 20 gal to get 1.5 ppm... the tank is a 20 gal. the light can go as high as 80 watts which would put me at 4 wpg the old way or around 5.5 WPG the new way. i would like to be at 60 watts. i have eco complete substrate. it is moderatly planted right now but will be much heavier planted soom. i have 2 2 litre bottles of DIY co2 that are producing like crazy. they are diffused by a hagen ladder then all escaping bubbles are sucked up by my aqua clear and diffused even more. here is the tank now. thanks in advance

 

[JRagg]

I want to say the big ones are:

K2SO4 (Potassium Sulfate for dosing Potassium)
KPO4 (Potassium Phosphate for dosing Phosphate)
KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate for dosing Nitrates)

And then something for trace elements (I don't have any input on that).

I'd bookmark this link. Good information on the "estimative index" method of dosing.

http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2062

 

[fish_4_all]

Micros, CSM+B. All of them can be pruchased from Gregs Watsons. They are all purchased dry. Click Here. This site has all the calculations for the macros. I don't remember the CSM+B calculation but will find it and post it as soon as I can. That should cover the fertilizers although some say to get chelated iron, MgSO4 and maybe some Calcium from Gregs at the same time just to save shipping and you may need it, may not.

I don't have my plants growing well enough but when I do I will be seriously trying the EI.

Here is the calculation.
mg CSM+B * (.0653mg Fe/mg CSM+B)/mL water = mg Fe/mL trace mix
(4533 mg CSM+B * .0653 Fe/mg CSM+B)/118ml = 2.51 mg Fe/mL trace mix
CSM+B mixed 1 tsp or 4533mg in 100 ml water gives .1 ppm iron per ml dosed ( I use this for mine)
I hope this is correct otherwise I am dosing wrong.

Download the one for windows from Purrbox, I spent an spend hours on it calculating different things amd going online is a pain every couple hours while trying to figure it all out.

 

[Purrbox]

JRagg has covered the macros for you quite nicely.

For micros you'll want to look at Tropica Master Grow, Flourish Comprehensive, or CSM+B Plantex.

You can use either this web page or download this windows app to calculate how much you need to dose to hit your targets. The windows version gives you a few extras that aren't on the web version.

The two big dosing methodes popular these days, are Estimative Index (which JRagg gave you the link to) or dosing to specific targets. If you dose to targets you'll want to aim for the following.

Maintain a 10-20ppm Nitrate to 1ppm Phosphate ratio
A total of 10-20 Potassium over the course of the week
Dose enough micros to get between .1-.2 Fe

Watch for deficiencies and adjust as needed.

 

[MarkP]

Simple EI Schedule, as developed by Tom Barr

10- 20 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 1/8 tsp KNO3 (N) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp KH2PO4 (P) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp K2SO4 (K) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

Now, perhaps the easiest way to do this would be to get a reasonably large, opaque bottle- Light can degrade your ferts, but using this method, it probably won't matter.

Go to Gregwatson.com, buy KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, and CSM+B. I beleive it's 20 or 30 bucks, including shipping- I forget exactly. But it's SO much cheaper then buying it elsewhere- Get 2lb of KNO3, 1lb of the rest, it'll last you over a year.

Put 1/2 TSP KNO3 and 1/4 TSP each of KH2PO4, K2SO4, and CSM+B in the bottle, and fill 'er up with water. Why? Because you probably don't have a 1/32 tsp mearsuring spoon.

Sunday, do a 50% water change. Shake up the bottle, Dump in 1/4th of the bottle.

Tuesday, Shake up the bottle, dump in 1/4th of the bottle.

Thursday, dump in 1/4th of the bottle.

Repeat. Make more when the bottle runs out. Store the bottle in a cool, dark place.

That's EI in a Nutshell. You can change it up. Get say, a 100ml bottle, put in 1 tsp KNO3, 1/2 of the rest, and add 12.5ml for each dose, or get a smaller set of measuring spoons and add the dry ferts directly to the tank each day. The details of how you dose don't really matter, whatever is easiest for you.

Note that this is only ONE method of fertilizing the tank. Many other methods exist, this method is easy because it requires no testing. You could go the other extreme and test Nitrates, Potassium, Phosphate, etc, and dose whatever is low, but you sounded like you wanted a simple method of dosing the tank.

EDIT* Barr has 2 R's.

 

[Tong]

Eh? 24" T8 bulbs are 17 watts I thought. I've been doing a lot of research on lighting for small tanks and these are the light levels I have come up with for your tank.

1250 lumens - the amount of light a 17 watt T8 daylight bulb usually produces.
5.63 - Magic number Wizard~Of~Oz came up with

If you have a 20H.

2 17 watt bulbs:
1250 lumens * 2 = 2500 lumens
24" * 13" = 312 square inches for tank surface area
2500 / 312 = 8 lumens per square inch
8 / 5.63 = 1.42 WPG

3 17 watt bulbs = 2.13 WPG (Using same formula)
4 17 watt bulbs = 2.85 WPG

If you have a 20L.

2 17 watt bulbs = 1.23 WPG
3 17 watt bulbs = 1.85 WPG
4 17 watt bulbs = 2.47 WPG

As you can see, even with all four bulbs running you won't even hit high light. Why not? This is because smaller bulbs produce fewer lumens per watt and the WPG rule was built using 4' tubes probabaly over a 55 gallon tank.

These lighting levels make sense to me because even at 0.55 WPG my tank bottomed out on nitrates. I have more than twice as many plants as you do (desity wise) so I'm not surprised that you are bottoming out on nitrates when you start getting past 1.5 WPG. I hope this all made sense!

 

[Purrbox]

NO Flourescents are 10 watts per 12", so the wattage that mr funktastic originally posted is appropriate. Perhaps you were thinking of a 24" fixture which would house a shorter bulb?

 

[Tong]

You are thinking of T12 bulbs. T8 bulbs use fewer watts. 48" T8 uses only 32 watts, not 40". mr funktastic uses 24" T8's, which should be 17 watts.

 

[Purrbox]

Just did some checking on DrsFosterSmith and it appears that this varies by brand. For some brands the wattage follows the conversion I posted reguardless of whether you are looking at T-8 or T-12, while for others T-8's are less as you had posted.

 

[Tong]

Thats news to me. So if he is using 20 watt T8's he actually might be at 3 WPG with all four or even higher.

 

[mr funktastic]

ya even higher. i use all hagen GLO series. i have two life glo and a power glo bulb all rated at 20 watts each. and also 1 watt of t-8 lighting is higher than 1 watt of t-12. i have never done the lumens thing but it is good to know. i understand the dosing a little more now. i will have to look into greg watsons stuff. i have had the tank running with the 3 bulbs before. everything was going great then suddenly algea started so i had to lower the watts. here is a pic of the tank before with the three bulbs lol welcome to the jungle.

i was tired of the overgrown crazyness and the blue gravel so i dropped out alot of my plants and went with eco. i like the new set up and am so far algea free but i want to do everything right from the beginning with the new setup. thanks for the dosing tips so far and if anyone else has any suggestions i am open to them thanks

 

[fish_4_all]

Here is the conversion, I think:
T12 100%
T10 106%
T8 141%
CF 135%

 

[mr funktastic]

ya thats the conversion i use. i just multiply t-8 y 1.4. so 60 watts of light multiplied by the coversion would give me: 60 x 1.41 = 84.6/20(gal) gives me 4.23 at only 3 bulbs. plus i have a mirror as a reflector so i am not loosing very much light that way either. if i went up to the 4 bulbs it would give me 80 watts old way and: 80 x 1.41 = 112.8/20(gal) = 5.64 the new way. i am sure even with lumens conversions and everything that puts me well into the high light range. i made a post on here about the hood i made and everything. i really need to get some nitrogen for now and i will look into potasium and phosphate later. i will continue to dose my flourish trace in the meen time. will it effect my tank if i am only dosing the trace? i will keep that up unless i am advised otherwise.

 

[czcz]

mr funktastic, one of the appealing aspects of high-very high light is that you don't have to worry about exact levels so much. This is the same appeal as EI and exceeding 30ppm CO2: you are past the thresholds of plant use, so you can move onto other stuff.

To reiterate the advice already given, you should start a full dosing schedule as soon as you move to very high light. If you adopt EI this isolates CO2. FWIW, I'm not so sure you will have enough CO2, and would suggest a powered diffuser instead of adding another bottle.

I think you should limit light to the levels pictured above. You really excelled there man; such great growth. If you dosed traces then, dose it now. I think the reason things went badly before is nutrient deficiency, so I don't think you should run the higher light until your fertilizer order arrives. No fun to learn without tools on hand.

MarkP,

Put 1/2 TSP KNO3 and 1/4 TSP each of KH2PO4, K2SO4, and CSM+B in the bottle, and fill 'er up with water. Why? Because you probably don't have a 1/32 tsp mearsuring spoon.

FYI, best to avoid mixing KH2PO4 and CSM+B in the same concentrated soultion, as it will form a percipitate from P binding to Fe. Your plan would work with any other combination/two dosing solutions. Personally I would double the KNO3 because I am of the opinion that running rich NO3 to start makes everything easier.

HTH

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Simple EI Schedule, as developed by Tom Barr

10- 20 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 1/8 tsp KNO3 (N) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp KH2PO4 (P) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp K2SO4 (K) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

Now, perhaps the easiest way to do this would be to get a reasonably large, opaque bottle- Light can degrade your ferts, but using this method, it probably won't matter.

Go to Gregwatson.com, buy KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, and CSM+B. I beleive it's 20 or 30 bucks, including shipping- I forget exactly. But it's SO much cheaper then buying it elsewhere- Get 2lb of KNO3, 1lb of the rest, it'll last you over a year.

Put 1/2 TSP KNO3 and 1/4 TSP each of KH2PO4, K2SO4, and CSM+B in the bottle, and fill 'er up with water. Why? Because you probably don't have a 1/32 tsp mearsuring spoon.

Sunday, do a 50% water change. Shake up the bottle, Dump in 1/4th of the bottle.

Tuesday, Shake up the bottle, dump in 1/4th of the bottle.

Thursday, dump in 1/4th of the bottle.

Repeat. Make more when the bottle runs out. Store the bottle in a cool, dark place.

That's EI in a Nutshell. You can change it up. Get say, a 100ml bottle, put in 1 tsp KNO3, 1/2 of the rest, and add 12.5ml for each dose, or get a smaller set of measuring spoons and add the dry ferts directly to the tank each day. The details of how you dose don't really matter, whatever is easiest for you.

Note that this is only ONE method of fertilizing the tank. Many other methods exist, this method is easy because it requires no testing. You could go the other extreme and test Nitrates, Potassium, Phosphate, etc, and dose whatever is low, but you sounded like you wanted a simple method of dosing the tank.

EDIT* Barr has 2 R's.

Nope, nope, nope, nope........

I will make a correction to your dosing. You do not want to mix your traces with your macros. Not sure of some of the other traces, but if iron is mixed with your macros, it will fall out of solution, and maybe others as well, and possibly lead to other problems. My correction to your plan would be 2 bottles (one for CSM+B and the other for the macros), do the same setup, and dose the macros and micros on alternating days. Other than that, you have a good plan, I believe.

 

[MarkP]

Nope, nope, nope, nope........

I will make a correction to your dosing. You do not want to mix your traces with your macros. Not sure of some of the other traces, but if iron is mixed with your macros, it will fall out of solution, and maybe others as well, and possibly lead to other problems. My correction to your plan would be 2 bottles (one for CSM+B and the other for the macros), do the same setup, and dose the macros and micros on alternating days. Other than that, you have a good plan, I believe.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just trying to learn.

Wouldn't that completely negate the PMDD recipe? It includes Chelated Trace Mix (Such as CSM+B) and Potassium Nitrate?

Is it a chemical reaction that causes the Iron to fall out of the mix, or simply that at the concentrations that make it usefull for doing aquariums, you end up with simply too many dissolved solids in the water?

If it's a chemical reaction, wouldn't it happen anyway in the aquarium? If so, would it be better to dose the Trace first, or Nitrate? I suppose it depends on exactly what the reaction would be, and what other reactions are happening.

If it's simply trying to dissolve too much powder into too little water, it would depend on precisely how big of a bottle I use and how much I put in to.

That could explain why my PMDD mix seems to undissolved solids in it, which is why I always shake it up. I've been dosing PMDD on an EI schedule, and the solids APPEAR to dissolve after being introduced to the aquarium, but that's might be an optical illusion or iron being dissolved into something still not usefull to plants.

Again, I'm not disputing you, I'm just trying to understand what's going on.

 

[fish_4_all]

I think the worry is more that when the iron precipitates out the fish have a chance to ingest it. Iron like that would almost certainly kill your fish if they actually swallowed it. I don't know if it doesn't dissolve or anything like that, just that even with my CSB+B I get precipiate out of it mixing it in 100 ml/tsp and the fish always try to eat it. And yes, I have tired more water and less water and always get something whiteish that decides to fall out of solution 4 days after initial mixing.

Also if it precipitates out, how do you know how much iron your plants are getting when you dose? If you don't get any of the particulates to come out in the dose then you didn't dose any iron, if you get a lot, did you just do a mega dose of iron? I think it just makes dosing iron almost impossible if it precipitates out of solution.

 

[Purrbox]

First off, EI and PMDD are to entirely separate dosing philosophies. The reason that you can get away with mixing all of your ferts into a single solution with PMDD is that one of the premises involves limiting Phophates. When Phophates and Iron are mixed together the Iron will precipitate out of the solution making it unavailable to your plants. Since PMDD limit Phosphates this minimizes the problem.

This is less of an issue in an aquarium as long as the ferts are dosed at least 4 hours apart. Not entirely sure of the science behind it, people are still working figuring it all out. Most people find it easier to simply alternate dosing of Phophates and Iron on separate days.

One of the most basic principles of EI is making sure that all the necessary nutrients are available in ample supply at all times. This means that nothing is limited, including Phosphates. If you mixed everything into a single solution you would end up accidently limiting iron. This leads to yellow leaves with green veins.

Hope this helps clear things up.

 

[Glenc]

Hey mr funktastic, welcome to high light! It is a good idea to dose before you start to have algea issues. You will still get some, but you will learn how to deal with them from the folks here. When and how much you dose which ferts will depend mostly on how much light and how many plants you have. Tom Barr's EI has worked well for me. Dose plenty of ferts, 50% water change at the end of the week to re set everything. Check out his site for the full explanation of EI. It makes alot of sense. I started dosing with seachem ferts till I got the hang of it. I now use Greg's dry ferts because it's way cheaper, but was a bit scared of them at first. If you go the seachem route, I have all the dosing amounts written down for a 20 gallon. Also have a 500 ml bottle of Flourish nitrogen for NO3 you can have. Dosing is the hardest thing to get down, EI makes it alot easier. I have learned alot by pushing the limits, especially with lighting and CO2. Good luck.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Learned something new here.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just trying to learn.

Not arguing here as well, I'm still learning too. Sometimes I'm even incorrect.