Substrate. The endless debate

[Molson_28]

So I want to make my substrate as nutrient rich as possible. Like most I scour YouTube and so on trying to find the perfect solution. I was thinking of putting both organic dirt and a nutrient rich substrate from my LFS in my new 90 gallon. Question is would this be a good idea? Also how thick should a substrate be and is there a such thing as too much nutrients? Any feedback is much appreciated. Thank you


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[Coursair]

Well my thought is that even if you put in potting soil and a "planted" substrate the nutrients in the substrate are still going to become depleted over time.

but yes with that plan you probably will get great growth. I don't think you would have too many nutrients.

The plus side of some of the special substrates is that they have high CEC
and have more surface to hold nutrients near plant roots.

Once your soil and planted substrate are exhausted of nutrients, you can start adding root tabs just like the rest of us.


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[Coursair]

My reason for avoiding dirt is that in my small tanks, I'm often having to move plants and I don't want clouds of dirt coming up into my water column.

I'm using sand and root tabs in my tanks. I have one tank with aquasoil which is amazing, but also a PITA.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=127768


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[Molson_28]

That's awesome growth for sand in surprised


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[Molson_28]

So the guy at my LFS told me every few years I have to change up the substrate because yes it does get depleted. If I just use root tabs do I even have to change the substrate?


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[Coursair]

So the guy at my LFS told me every few years I have to change up the substrate because yes it does get depleted. If I just use root tabs do I even have to change the substrate?


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No, not unless it gets too compacted. But I have MTS snails in my tanks to help prevent that.

Lots of us use sand and get good growth. It's all about using proper fertilization and keeping up on correct water changes.

Even in dirted tanks you would probably still need to use water column fertilization ?
The dirt takes care of the roots similar to root tabs.


http://youtu.be/aptmdICahvM

I'm not against dirt tanks or planted substrates. I just wanted cheap and easy with my small tanks.


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[Mattfinn]

I've found it much more cost affective to use sand over, dirt and other plant specific substrates. I use fluval strat in one tank originally great yeah heaps of growth but after about 3-4 months even my hygro C was losing leaves and I had to start using root tabs. That was my first planted tank....please excuse the back right corner and the hygro. My crypts melted on me after a co2 malfunction and I pulled out a heap of hygro and replanted a few stems which I need to trim and let grow in abit more.


This though is my first sand tank and couldn't a job be easier. I actually sprinkled some osmocote + in with the sand so I don't have to provide nutrients for a little while. But soon I'll add tabs. It's also my first betta and a crypt only tank. waiting for my crypts to grow in here too it's almost a month old.

 

[Delapool]

Is there any clay rich substrate that can be inserted into a planted tank without tearing it down?

I've just ordered a bunch of root tabs mainly to improve the substrate and they are easy to insert. But this is a little expensive.

I looked at hydroponic clay balls but they look quite hard whereas I want a clay ball that will break apart and stay on the gravel.

 

[Coursair]

Where are you buying from ? TPT often has root tabs and other things cheaper than stores.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=791186

Current thread from user nilocg:

"NEW MTS/EI/CLAY Capsules-
50 #000 capsules for $14 shipped

These Comprise of:
75% Mineralized Top Soil
25% EI+Clay formula(16 parts Red Clay, 8 parts CSM+B, 2 parts Potassium Sulfate, 2 parts Magnesium Sulfate, 0.5 part Potassium Nitrate)




OSMOCOTE+CAPSULES
For sale are 00 sized capsules filled with Osmocote Plus. I am selling them for the cheapest I have seen them sold. Get them while they last.

The capsules are-
-BSE Free Certification-
-Gelatin Capsules -
- Halal Certificate -
-Kosher Certification -


Options-

Prices include first class shipping - add $3 for Priority

25 - $5
50 - $8
75 - $10
100 - $11
150 - $12
200 - $17
300 - $20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------




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[Delapool]

Where are you buying from ? TPT often has root tabs and other things cheaper than stores.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=791186

Current thread from user nilocg:

"NEW MTS/EI/CLAY Capsules-
50 #000 capsules for $14 shipped

These Comprise of:
75% Mineralized Top Soil
25% EI+Clay formula(16 parts Red Clay, 8 parts CSM+B, 2 parts Potassium Sulfate, 2 parts Magnesium Sulfate, 0.5 part Potassium Nitrate)




OSMOCOTE+CAPSULES
For sale are 00 sized capsules filled with Osmocote Plus. I am selling them for the cheapest I have seen them sold. Get them while they last.

The capsules are-
-BSE Free Certification-
-Gelatin Capsules -
- Halal Certificate -
-Kosher Certification -


Options-

Prices include first class shipping - add $3 for Priority

25 - $5
50 - $8
75 - $10
100 - $11
150 - $12
200 - $17
300 - $20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------




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Many thanks - think I will have to join TPT.

I ended up buying some API root tabs through amazon. Much cheaper than here but I was thinking if I do that every 6 months it will still add up.

I'm using a white clay filler in DIY substrate ferts but it doesn't seem to last. Seems to dissolve or something after a week whereas i could remember hitting API root tabs with the gravel vac weeks later to get a cloud of gunk.

I know (or think) the white clay isn't the best and need to switch to a dark reddish clay but having no luck finding any in the hardware store.

Reading above maybe mineralised top soil I could get in the hills?

 

[Coursair]

You make Mineralized Top Soil.

You shouldn't need to do too much vacuuming with a planted tank.

My DIY Osmocote plus root tabs are recommended to be changed every 3 to 4 months I believe.

I just bought 50 for $8 incl shipping.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ron-talbot.html#/forumsite/20597/topics/52554

You can buy MTS but it's usually used as a substrate.


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[Delapool]

You make Mineralized Top Soil.

You shouldn't need to do too much vacuuming with a planted tank.

My DIY Osmocote plus root tabs are recommended to be changed every 3 to 4 months I believe.

I just bought 50 for $8 incl shipping.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ron-talbot.html#/forumsite/20597/topics/52554

You can buy MTS but it's usually used as a substrate.


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Thanks for the link, I'll check out garden centres. Should be able to get pottery clay somewhere.

Hardly any vacuuming now. I try it on occasion at the front of the tank to see what is building up in the substrate but to date it has been still reasonably clean. Not sure if that is good or bad.

 

[Mattfinn]

Delapool, even here in aus we can get osmocote I know miracle seeing as we are limited to virtually one or two brands for every other piece of equipment.

I use Osmocote in my tank too. I just don't have the gel capsules because I'm not allowed to order online yet. So I just add them to water and freeze but I've seen people that get clay and roll the Osmocote in the clay into balls.

 

[Delapool]

Delapool, even here in aus we can get osmocote I know miracle seeing as we are limited to virtually one or two brands for every other piece of equipment.

I use Osmocote in my tank too. I just don't have the gel capsules because I'm not allowed to order online yet. So I just add them to water and freeze but I've seen people that get clay and roll the Osmocote in the clay into balls.

Lol (grumble, Western Australia, grumble, Aussie dollar, grumble).

I'm really after a clay that I can add to the substrate to improve I understand the cation exchange. That was the main reason for getting the API root tabs as I've found they seem to stay in the gravel.

I'm not keen on pulling up the gravel to put soil or something else in but was thinking I could do it over time if I can find something like clay balls?

Currently my DIY substrate tabs are inside a gel cap and have a low phosphate fert and a white garden clay (meant to improve the sandy soil here). But I suspect the ferts dissolve very quick and that the clay doesn't hang around either. Within a week or two anyways. I don't dose phosphate otherwise (only in the substrate ferts), so I've been able to track a bit how quickly the DIY substrate tabs have been dissolving. It's a bit disheartening.

So I've been looking around for something else to try and improve the substrate but doesn't involve pulling up all the plants, etc.

I looked at hydroponic clay balls but they look a bit large and almost like they have baked.

What sort of clay do they use over your way?

 

[Mattfinn]

Lol (grumble, Western Australia, grumble, Aussie dollar, grumble).

I'm really after a clay that I can add to the substrate to improve I understand the cation exchange. That was the main reason for getting the API root tabs as I've found they seem to stay in the gravel.

I'm not keen on pulling up the gravel to put soil or something else in but was thinking I could do it over time if I can find something like clay balls?

Currently my DIY substrate tabs are inside a gel cap and have a low phosphate fert and a white garden clay (meant to improve the sandy soil here). But I suspect the ferts dissolve very quick and that the clay doesn't hang around either. Within a week or two anyways. I don't dose phosphate otherwise (only in the substrate ferts), so I've been able to track a bit how quickly the DIY substrate tabs have been dissolving. It's a bit disheartening.

So I've been looking around for something else to try and improve the substrate but doesn't involve pulling up all the plants, etc.

I looked at hydroponic clay balls but they look a bit large and almost like they have baked.

What sort of clay do they use over your way?

Tell me about it. Atleast Sydney isn't as isolated as WA. To answer your last question the clay I've seen people use is clay they use for pottery just not baked. This is a quick link I found about people discussing clay
www.aquariumlife.com.au/showthread.php/33812-clay-for-DIY-root-tabs

 

[Delapool]

Thanks - I'll check out.

I'm assuming that a swelling clay (dark green, smectite) or maybe a laterite clay (reddish I guess) will be best?

I assume these would have better cation exchange capacity than lighter coloured kaolinite clays? I looked up wiki on CEC.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaolinite

I had thought trees don't grow so well on these clays. Or maybe I'm overthinking it.