4 German Blue Rams (2 males, 2 females), what should I do for breeding purposes?

[B Phishin]

What up everybody?! So, today I purchased 1 new male German Blue Ram and 2 female German Blue Rams (GBRs), from the local pet store (lps). I now have a total of 4 GBRs, which include 2 males and 2 females. The good-looking, male GBR I had previously, lost his dominance when the new male was introduced, earlier this evening. They jostled, swiped eachothers' bodies against one another, and even "rammed/head-butted" eachother, on and off, for about an hour until the original male gave up and has since been hiding (staying on the opposite end of the tank from the new dominant male), lost his flashy colors, and doesn't show much confidence at all. He sways his body almost sideways when the dominant, male GBR is in view, as if to "tuck his tail." I was hoping I would end up with 2 paired couples, but that doesn't seem to be the case. The dominant male is almost hoarding the other 2 females and making sure they are all to himself. Is this natural? I should probably return the old, male GBR shouldn't I?? If I do return the old, less-dominant male, will the dominant GBR only spawn with one of the females, and ignore/not spawn, with the other female? Would appreciate any advice guys? Much appreciated.. My parameters will be given in the next thread..

[B Phishin]

- 29 gallon tank (tall)
- Temperature - 80 degrees (F)
- Substrate - 50 lbs of playsand (thoroughly rinsed/cleansed)
- Filtration - 150 Penguin Bio-Wheel Filtration System, and 100 Penguin Bio-Wheel Filtration System
- Artificial plants, slabs of limestone and black slate
- GH-120, kH-120, pH-6.6-7.0, NO2-0, NO3-0, NH3/NH4-approx .25
- 2 100-watt submersible heaters
- Fish Stock - 4 GBRs, 2 marbled angels (dime-sized), 7 cardinal tetras, 1 spotted 1 brustel-nosed pleco, and 1 spotted synadontis valentiana

THANKS GUYS! I need some input!

[jetajockey]

That's the reason why I don't usually recommend multiple pairs for a tank, with cichlids there is usually a dominant one that will bully the other(s).

I'd return the one being bullied, or at least move him to another tank for now, and then once the male pairs up with a female you'll probably have to remove the 3rd wheel as well, so that's another thing to keep in mind.


The angelfish may become an issue to the tank also as they get older, if they end up pairing off and all that.

Is this tank cycled? The small ammonia reading and lack of nitrates suggests that it isn't.
Your tank is overstocked also, but you didn't ask about that.

[B Phishin]

Thanks for the advice jetajockey. I'm going to return the less dominant male GBR to the lps and let the dominant male do his thing and pick his female. I knew it was a long shot to try and spawn 2 pairs at once, but it looks like it just wasn't meant to be. At least now, I can figure out the dominant pair that will have the most successful breeding opportunities. Just tested all my parameters and everything is approx the same, except for the nitrate levels, which are about 20, and my ammonia (NH3/NH4) is around .25/.50. I started my tank in early October, so i think it's fully cycled. I did have some problems in my first fish stock, which included ich, finrot, and a tank not-properly-cycled (i was too impatient). Though, things seem to be going smoothly over the past month.
I could see my tank being overstocked, but how so exactly? I know the angels will get bigger (worry about that in a few months), but how do you tell the sex differences between male and female angels? Is it possible to have a spawning couple of angels and GBRs at the same time in a 29 gallon tank? Will my synadontis and pleco eat the eggs? Get back to me.. thanks man

[JesseMessykinn]

Jeta is Deffently right... After they pair up your best bet it to drop to a single pair, Im Currently keeping a trio of GBR. 1 Male 2 Females, The male is aggressive to the one female. She is def getting rehomed so she doesnt get killed.

[jetajockey]

It's hard to sex angelfish while they are young, but generally males get larger and sometimes have a small nuchal hump, and they tend to be more aggressive. The breeding tubes are another giveaway.

The tank is overstocked because a 29g is really the bare minimum I'd use for a pair of angelfish as a permanent home, and I wouldn't put much with them at that. Combine that with some other somewhat aggressive rams (at least when pairing/spawning), 7 schoolers, a syno cat and pleco and I think its a bit much.

The catfish *might* eat the eggs if the parent's aren't guarding them, but even still if any fry manage to hatch out they will be picked off by the other fish in the tank in short order.

[jetajockey]

Moved to Freshwater & Brackish - Breeding.

Please do not make any more duplicate threads on this subject, 1 is enough.

[B Phishin]

Ok, word dude. I'm just trying to get the most responses by having it seen in 3 different forums for the maximum amount of advice. Sorry if that's a problem Davey. Thought it was a good idea! Thanks for the advice homie.. GO CATS!!

[bumzc]

29G is small for 2 pairs of GBR but its doable. Make sure to have lots of cover (plants, cave, wood, etc)

I have 3 pair in a 55G and each pair has their own spot. The biggest and most dominate male/female claims the middle of the tank and the other two pair takes a corner.

[B Phishin]

That sounds pretty sweet. I, unfortunatly, went ahead and returned the other, less-dominant male GBR because it lost all of its color and was hiding in corners of the tank, about as far away as the dominant male, as possible. He wasn't showing any confidence. That was about 3 hours ago, and now the dominant male has picked a female (he's been hoarding both of them), and it looks as if she's getting ready to lay eggs. Her belly is bright pink and purplish, and the two are starting to clean the surface, with their mouths, on a slab of limestone. The other female is pretty distant, and at times, the dominant male chases her off. She has a bright, swollen belly, as well. I think she was preggo when I bought her yesterday at the LFS. Is it possible to have 2 females spawning with the same dominant male around the same time? Or will the other female just lay unfertilzed eggs somewhere?

[B Phishin]

Also, just over the past couple weeks I've noticed that one of my slabs of black slate is now covered in a brownish, algae-looking, thin moss. And it hasn't taken too long for this stuff to spread/grow.. Should I be worried? What exactly is it? Thanks

[bumzc]

I doubt it. Once the male has bonded with the first female and laid eggs he will be with her until the eggs/fry are gone.

Before when I had 3 female and 2 males. The last female who didn't have a mate would dig/clean her own spawning site and would try to entice both males. They would usually attack her but one did finally follow her back to her spawning rock and while she laid eggs he came behind her and ate them up. After she she was done he left to go back to his mate with a full stomach.