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Old 01-23-2014, 08:56 PM   #61
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Okay. Thanks for taking the time to answer everything. I know I'm a pain. It's just sooo frustrating to finally get them spawning, and feel like a total failure when the fry die (I heard you, and appreciate the fact that it could be so many things, but I really feel like one of the main problems is something I am doing! Here's a summary of what's happened in the past few months:

Black/gold pair- 5 spawns. 1st she got some wigglers, but they were eaten. 2nd she had 60 free swimming fry for 2 days. Then, eaten. I sectioned the pair off to one side of the tank. 3rd, she had about 100 free swimming fry for 3 days, and they died. (No explanation. They went from swimming for 3 full days (eating with orange bellies) to dead in the gravel. Mom found 6, and put them on a leaf. But they never swam again. Disappeared that day). Each hatch, the fry lived longer. I removed the gravel on the sectioned off side. 4th spawn: she only got about 20 wigglers, and none swam. 5th spawn is now. I pulled most, which ALL died without even wiggling. The eggs were stained blue in spots, so they were probably dead quite a few days, in which I was hoping for a few to survive. This may have to do with the freezing weather. The heater may not have done a good enough job. It's REALLY cold! But, the main tank wigglers ALL are still alive (unless I missed her eating dead). I'm afraid to even do a water change. Lol. Seems like every time I touch anything, everyone dies! 😔. These 2 fish are the healthiest, prettiest in the tank. Maybe because they're divided off, with no interaction with other fish....and no gravel?

White pair: BREEDED FOR THE PREVIOUS OWNER!!!! So, except for age, it's just not possible that it's the fishs' fault the eggs didn't live. I was told they were 1 year old. I purchased them to "induce spawning" in the tank in sept. It worked. I tried to leave their eggs the first time, but the pair are them (previous owner pulled eggs). They spawned 2 more times. I pulled the eggs. Got wigglers, but they'd all die before swimming. The male got sick. He began hiding behind the castle, and only coming out to eat. He had "scrapes" all over him. I never saw him flick. EVER. I never did figure out what he had. In the end, his scales started sticking out, but he wasn't bloated. When he came out to eat, he swam just fine. The only other male angel had recently "come into his own" and took over the tank. The white male was picked on a bit, so I assume he got some bacterial thing after getting his butt kicked. I tried salt, many meds, and everything I could to save him. I came home one day and be was lying on his side on the gravel. He tried to get away when I net him, but I figured he'd suffered enough.... His mate started swimming with the striped male (only other male). She'd go up and try to lip lock with him, but he'd throw his head up so she pecked his chin instead. Now, she sits and stares at the black/gold pair and their wigglers. I pray she's just not sure what to do if she's not breeding....and not sick with whatever the male had. I tell you this for 2 reasons: 1. Maybe the black/gold fry ARE being hit with something bacterial! How would I determine that? And, any ideas what to do about it? The big white fish seemed to get better when I fed kanaplex and the oxytetracycline food from angels plus, but I ran the full 10 days of feeding TWICE, and stopped when you told me that if the other breeding pair ate any, it may affect the fry. 2. I finally got my fish spawning by turning off the bubbles. I learned that by going on and on until you noticed that 1 key thing I was missing. I keep hoping that will happen now.

On to the most important pair, who are in a totally separate tank, with just cory cats. I've never had health issues with these 2, but the male black marble has blue/green sparkles on his gills that worry me. Anyhow, this is only their second spawn. I wasn't even sure they were male female. Their first spawn produced 10 wigglers, which I pulled. These were the ones "trapped in fuzz". I had 2 live for 2 weeks as belly sliders, but never swam. This second spawn has produced about 60-100 wigglers that are jumping around the bottom of the 2.5g tank. Some are now "swimming" and landing on the sides of the tank and sticking again. This is not really swimming right? I was wrong about the time. Today is actually day 7. Now for the weirdness. I tested the water as you suggested: ammonia-0, nitrites-0, KH-2, gh-3....ph: no clue!!! If your phone is the same number, I sent a picture. The ph test comes out a darker blue than the highest number. The high range ph does not match any color on the chart. I tried twice! Also, the eggs I left in the tank dead looked like cotton balls when I removed them last night. And there was fuzzy stuff keeping them stuck together. Isn't that fungus? On the other hand, I noticed some wigglers (now dead) that looked like the fungus was "spreading to them". In retrospect, it was more like a white spot on part of the wiggler. That's bacterial? What do I do about that? I

Questions:
1. If something bacterial is killing my fry from different pairs in diff tanks, wouldn't the problem have to be the water? How would I fix that? Can you dose the tank with anything?

2. I asked about feeding because there are 2 SWIMMING fry. Shouldn't I feed them in case the rest are belly sliders? Or is day 7 too soon? I would rather have 2 live than none.

3. My pull process is: within 10 min of fertilization (fish are fanning by then) I pull whatever the eggs are on. Per instructions on the m.blue bottle, I add 5 drops per gallon (so 12 in the 2.5g). I heat the water before hand with a 15g heater. I add the airstone 1/2 inch away from eggs. Remember, only 13 eggs out of 300-400 eggs turned white. All the deaths occurred to WIGGLERS. I covered the tank with aluminum foil, and other than shining a lamp and using the light on my camera to look at them, I haven't touched the tank. I won't get hurt feelings....I WANT you to tell me what I might be doing wrong! I mixed spring and distilled bottled water for this tank. I'm over getting offended....I just want to get this right! I'm now on this "if I can't do this, I'm a failure" level, and welcome ANY advise!

4. The water in the wiggler tank is getting low (I used siphon to remove dead last night). Should I attemp to top off? Or still just wait? Can I dose prime just in case at this point?

5. In case any live, when do I put sponge filter in, and can I use a new one? I'm afraid to use any cycled by parent tanks...in case this is a bacterial issue.

6. If any black/gold wigglers live, would that mean it WAS a water issue? Since I changed their tank to all bottled water also?

7. What would cause a high ph if the gh and kh are both under 3?

I would love to have a few successes to help determine the problem. I would do anything to see just 1 baby grow up! I hope you're right....and they just need more spawns under their belts to get this right. I'm really considering buying a breeding pair, putting them in their own tank, and see if those eggs live. I hate not knowing what I'm doing wrong. Sorry for the long post. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the effort you've given this project....and I really may have to compensate in some way.
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Old 01-23-2014, 09:11 PM   #62
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Oh my gosh...question above all others: about 5 are for sure swimming!!!!! I mean, haven't touched the found since they took off 5 min ago! However, 3 of them are attached to another wiggler. Literally, 3 swimmers are pulling 3 wigglers attached to each other by a thread! Is THIS normal? Will they separate? Oh wow....can I feed tonight?
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Old 01-23-2014, 09:56 PM   #63
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For starters, it just may turn out that these fish don;t have enough spawns to be producing good viable fry. That being said:
A high PH can come from over aeration so it is possible to have a high PH in water that is very soft. It may not stay that way but it can get that way.

As for how can the fry have a bacterial thing: it can be coming from the gravel still in the tank. bacteria don;t go by " Oh, there's a divider in the tank so I can't cross to the other side." My advice, get the gravel out of the tank, THE WHOLE TANK. My next suggestion is to clean the plants ( assuming they are artificial plants) so that they are out of the package clean. If that means bleaching them, so be it. There should not be an algae issue with fish fry.

Next, address the algae issue. If your tank is producing algae, there is too much nitrogen in the water and it's feeding the algae. Cut down on your feeding and reduce your light ( if it's green algae) or increase your light (if it's brown algae.) The excess nitrogen byproduct could, and I stress COULD, be having a negative effect on the fry which is why they start turning white. Part of the continuation of our experiment was to see if the problem was the machine ( the fish) or the mechanic (You). I'm not convinced yet as to which is correct and the only way to rule YOU out is for you to do nothing ( which you have been unable to do as yet ) Unfortunately, I don;t have a spawning under air at the moment so it will be difficult to shoot a video with the correct amount of air for the size spawn. You may just want, in the future, to keep a slow steady stream of bubbles going so that there is a gentle amount of water movement going over the eggs. Since the eggs are not really using that much oxygen out of the water, the need for high aeration is not there. Add in the fact that M. Blue is an oxygen carrier, you don't need a lot of surface agitation to acheive high oxygen levels in the water.

For topping off the fry tank, use the same water combination that is in there. I use my siphoning setup to drip water back into the fry tanks. if you have a single valve, you can adjust the drip so it's about 1 drop per second opposed to a steady fast stream. If you don;t have the valve, you can set the water container next to the fry tank only slightly higher than the water level in the tank so that the siphoning action will be slowed down. The higher the source water is to the tank, the faster the siphoning action will be. ( I'm lazy and have a perfect spot above my fry tanks/ bottles for my water container so I need the valve )

Some other bits, the blue/green flaking on the Marble could just be coloration. Not too many diseases are blue or green. I wouldn't worry.
How much did your temps drop in the tank? My tanks outside, in this current 40 degree nights ( last night was 35 degrees when I got home) are only down 4 degrees from "normal". That's 74-76 degrees. If your tanks are going colder, you need to up the wattage of the heaters you are using because the ones you have are not keeping the tanks warm enough. And you're INDOORS!!!! My tanks are wrapped in styrofoam sheets to keep the tanks insulated against the cold. You may need to do the same thing. Go to a Home Improvement store and get the insulation styrofoam package. It's 5 sheets and about $8.00. Cut to size and tape to the tank and to each other ( I'm using toothpicks to keep them connected.). Make sure the top is covered at night as well so no heat escapes from there. (I'm using styro and towels on mine.)

And most of all, get the other fish out of the tanks with the breeders. There's no need for cory cats or algae eaters or any other fish in the tanks with your breeders. For all we know, THEY are what's screwing the whole thing up? Panicking the parents, eating the eggs at night, etc. Real breeders only keep their breeders in a tank by themselves. They don;t get lonely so don;t worry about the mental health of the fish.

Yes, if you have some definite swimmers, feed them.... spareingly.

Yes, you can use a new sponge filter on your fry once you have started feeding them. Keep testing for ammonia since your PH is high. If you start getting some, try using the PRIME to convert it to detoxify it until your filter catches up. Really try to limit the water changes at this point.

NO, if the Black/ Gold babies live, it doesn't mean the problem was the water. You are not taking into account the number of spawns to this point, the lack of your interaction with these fry and the quality of the fry that survived. Sorry

I think that's got it? To quote my attorney when I call with a question, " I'll send you a bill."
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Old 01-24-2014, 10:28 AM   #64
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1st and foremost....you deserve pay for putting up with me!!!!!

2nd, the tank with the marbles has cory cats (which I will try to rehome), but it's bare bottom. So, the tank with FRY (at least 6 now free swimming....OMG....I'm trying so hard not to be excited, as I know there are more "steps"....) has no gravel in their tank, or their parents tank. This IS the tank that I pulled cotton ball eggs and saw white "specks" on wigglers that died. Either way, I'm waiting a while....hoping more swim....then I will feed (cleaning up what's not eaten of course). How long do I wait to "clean up"? And. I feel so stupid about the ph. I knew more bubbles= higher ph!!! See, sometimes, I'm trying so hard to cover everything, I miss what I already know. Should I slow the bubbles?

Temp: it's FREEZING literally. My home heater can't keep up. I turn a heat lamp on the tank if the red light on the heater stays on too long, but turn it off as soon as the light goes off. The other fry tank was in the bedroom.....let's just say freezing may have been the issue (and that wasn't a pun, lol, the bedroom has a window that isn't insulated enough. 2 home heaters and it's still cold. I put a 15g heater in a little betta tank, and it was always "on". Not sure that's what happened...but possible.

Okay, so I will have 5 million questions about bacteria and water later.... And bug you for opinions on the male white fish's sickness....But for now, what else do I do for my FREE SWIMMING FRY??? Lol (I'm not excited....😳&#128525. I will attempt to feed, sparingly, before bed. Will clean up and top off with water the same gh/kh (I can't do ph....cause I can't get an accurate reading, and it's too high either way). Right? I'll use prime (as always...). If you say so, I'll lower bubbles. What else? Oh, I'll add new sponge filter tomorrow. If all goes well, I feed 3-4 times a day, cleaning up (how long?) afterwards, add new sponge filter in morning, test for ammonia nitrites (changing matched water if necessary), and you said do LESS water changes? So....DONT change every day? We both know I'm probably at least part of the problem, so....I'm listening. I thought it was 20% a day. But, if you say wait for ammonia...I will.
I'm sure I'll have more questions....
I have a thought! Can I send my bill to bob's address? Lol! I'm teasing. I'll find some way to thank you...

Update this morning.....I'm afraid the brine shrimp is too big! They didn't eat it last night. So I tried to crumble fried brine shrimp and veggie flakes as finely as I could...and mixed it up with the frozen baby brine shrimp I have, and they ate. Same this's morning. They wouldn't eat the live. They'd swim up to it, then swim past, like it was too big for their mouths. I'm now wondering if a dietary issue isn't what killed the fry that swam for 3 days (the 3rd spawn of black/gold). I didn't have live BBS THEN. They ate the frozen, but maybe it wasn't enough...!!! I already started a new batch of BBS. But, do you have any suggestions for today? Did I leave the BBS cooking too long? Or are the babies just too small? (There are like 30 swimming around now!!!! Help...
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Old 01-24-2014, 10:40 AM   #65
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Besides the food questions....I'm also wondering if daily water changes are okay for a few days (instead of adding sponge filter). I want to put a brand new one in, and it'll take 2 days to receive. I had the 1 I planned to use in the fry tank getting colonized in the main tank. I have a 55g huge one that I planned to put in the main tank, when I took out the colonized small one. But, now I'm all concerned about bacteria. What do you think? Risk bad bacteria from the main tank, or wait for new 1? Or...I could put the huge 1 in the fry tank. It'd take up 1/2 the tank, but whatever you think is best, I'll do! Finally, I should turn the airstone off when I add the sponge filter, correct? Then maybe the ph will get under control! Should I be testing anything other than ammonia/nitrite daily?
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Old 01-24-2014, 11:37 AM   #66
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For starters, I will not argue with your #1
2nd- maybe you should write out a plan or checklist so that you can eliminate things as you go and not forget things that you should have done or already know? Just a suggestion.

You should clean out the uneaten food the next day before you feed again. As I said, this food will not pollute the water overnight. But you should see how much you are cleaning up and decrease your feed amount so that there is little uneaten food after each feeding.

As for waiting for the other fish to swim, don;t wait too long. The fry need to be fed within 24 hours of their becoming free swimming. If you only have a few swimmers now, put in a very small amount of food. You can always increase the amount should more fry start swimming.

Temperature IS a big issue. It controls the timing of everything. If your heaters can't keep the fry at 78 +/- degrees, you need to get larger wattage heaters. (I had to up my heaters to ones suggested for 20-30 gal tanks for my 10 gals because they are outside.) This could also be the crux of your problem as colder temps cause diseases and delay the maturation of the eggs, fry and subsequent little fishies Shove some newspaper under that window or put a towel in front of the crack. Seal the thing with styrofoam if you have to.

As for the aeration situation, yes, turn it down some. You only have a few fish so there is no need to have high aeration. That plus colder water holds more oxygen so you don;t need to have massive gas exchange at this point.

As for the sponge filter situation: use it when you get it. As I said, I have fish in a bottle that have been there since the beginning of the year and they are only on an air stone so your fish can hang on a few days

Cooking brine shrimp eggs vs the size of the fry: I have been told that some of the newer varieties of Angels ( including the Platinum- White) have been producing fry that are too small for newly hatched brine shrimp so they need to be started on either infusoria or other micro foods. This may be your case? I can't tell you without actually being there to see how the fry react to NEWLY hatched brine shrimp. Which brings up the point about time for BS eggs to hatch. I'm getting mine to hatch within 24 hours under a higher heat and I am feeding them within 6 hours of their hatching out. You need to see how long it is taking your shrimp to hatch in the conditions you have them in. This involves nothing more than checking them every hour or so until you see when they start hatching. Start at the 12 hour mark and check from there. Just remove the air and let the water settle for a couple of minutes. If you have a light on, you'll see the shrimp gravitating towards the light. Use a magnifying glass and take a quick peek. If you don;t see a lot of shrimp, put the airstone back in and come back in an hour- hour and 1/2 and look again and so on. Once you know when the shrimp are hatching, you can then plan when to feed them or start the eggs cooking so that the nupulii are less than 6 hours old.
Feeding schedule: You'll need to see how the fish are eating. Most times, when my fry first start eating, they are still orange 10 hours later so I don;t feed them more than once a day the first few days. then I increase feedings to coinside with them looking hungry ( having empty bellies.).

Water changes: Since the water thing may the issue, try not to have to do many water changes at this point. The less you do to these fry the better for now. As I said yesterday, we need to also determin if the problem is the machine or the mechanic So repeat after me : LEAVE THEM ALONE!!!!

Airstone vs sponge filter: I have used both. Since you have colder water? you may not need both. If you want to have a slow flow through the sponge filter and a slow blow with the airstone, that's fine. (I'm doing that right now in my 2 1/2 gal with older fry.) YOU just have to not overdue anything. As long as there is a steady stream of bubbles coming from the sponge filter, water is moving through the sponge. That's all that's necessary as this point.

That's it for now (Got to go earn some money to afford my fishies
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Old 01-25-2014, 11:07 AM   #67
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Haha on the schedule tip! I have 3 (I mean 3 full) loose leaf notebooks full of notes, schedules, med interactions, how-to's, what "not to", and etc! I have too much info! Once I can figure out what's important and what's not, I'll make a new "book".
I have about 60? Free swimming fry in the 2.5g!!!! 😍😍😍. After reading your responses, I'm going to make a few changes. 1st, I was cleaning up an hour after feeding (siphon method). But, I was also probably over feeding, so hopefully it balanced out. There's always a little left on the tank bottom, cause the little buggars won't move so I can siphon there. And...they ALWAYS look hungry to momma! Lol. I figured out the BBS (live) thing on my own (for once). I started pulling some out every few hours. I'm wasting a bunch that aren't hatched, but the ones alive are smaller. I was doing: live BBS before work, a mixture of mushed frozen BBS and first bites powder after work, and live BBS before bed. They eat every time (some even swim to the top when they see me coming or remove the foil). Should I change and feed less? Or, only feed if all the other food is gone?
Couple other questions:
1. I still haven't showed ammonia, but I pull a lot out while siphoning the bottom 3 times a day. I was topping off with a little softer water than the tank (more distilled than spring, but still the same mix only when the water went below the leaves (so, only once so far). I'm so afraid to lose them now....that I was putting a few drops of prime in every morning (only 2 days now). Should I stop? Can even prime mess things up, or is this an acceptable precaution?
2. Do I remove the foil? My apartment is crappy, and I'm afraid of dust from the air. There also might be mold in the ceiling. Can I leave the foil on? Or, should I put the tank top (with light) on?
3. I was worried about the light and temp. I bought an infrared heater, which seems to be helping the apt, and the tank heater doesn't come on as often. But, I was using a heat lamp (like for turtles), set at an angle to provide same temp and light. Was that bad? It makes me feel better, but if it will cause algae or hurt in anyway, I'll turn it off.
4. There are still about 7-10 wigglers at the bottom. 90% of the ones at the bottom started swimming the night before last. Should I cull?

On the black/gold wigglers....today is day 7 (from eggs laid). The mom spit pieces of food on the leaf. I've never seem her do that before. Does she somehow know their hungry? Of is she as desperate as I am to have ANY survive? I HAVE to do a WC today, or the nitrates (and ph...,because the bubbles are a lot more and harder when the tank evaporated). I'll use the spring/distilled mix, as a success with her fry would give me some real data to compare.... Anything I should be careful of? Or should I do anything about the food spitting?
How about 20% of sales??? Lol. I'll find a way to repay all this help!
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Old 01-25-2014, 01:01 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly5978 View Post
Haha on the schedule tip! I have 3 (I mean 3 full) loose leaf notebooks full of notes, schedules, med interactions, how-to's, what "not to", and etc! I have too much info! Once I can figure out what's important and what's not, I'll make a new "book".
I have about 60? Free swimming fry in the 2.5g!!!! ������. After reading your responses, I'm going to make a few changes. 1st, I was cleaning up an hour after feeding (siphon method). But, I was also probably over feeding, so hopefully it balanced out. There's always a little left on the tank bottom, cause the little buggars won't move so I can siphon there. And...they ALWAYS look hungry to momma! Lol. I figured out the BBS (live) thing on my own (for once). I started pulling some out every few hours. I'm wasting a bunch that aren't hatched, but the ones alive are smaller. I was doing: live BBS before work, a mixture of mushed frozen BBS and first bites powder after work, and live BBS before bed. They eat every time (some even swim to the top when they see me coming or remove the foil). Should I change and feed less? Or, only feed if all the other food is gone?
Couple other questions:
1. I still haven't showed ammonia, but I pull a lot out while siphoning the bottom 3 times a day. I was topping off with a little softer water than the tank (more distilled than spring, but still the same mix only when the water went below the leaves (so, only once so far). I'm so afraid to lose them now....that I was putting a few drops of prime in every morning (only 2 days now). Should I stop? Can even prime mess things up, or is this an acceptable precaution?
2. Do I remove the foil? My apartment is crappy, and I'm afraid of dust from the air. There also might be mold in the ceiling. Can I leave the foil on? Or, should I put the tank top (with light) on?
3. I was worried about the light and temp. I bought an infrared heater, which seems to be helping the apt, and the tank heater doesn't come on as often. But, I was using a heat lamp (like for turtles), set at an angle to provide same temp and light. Was that bad? It makes me feel better, but if it will cause algae or hurt in anyway, I'll turn it off.
4. There are still about 7-10 wigglers at the bottom. 90% of the ones at the bottom started swimming the night before last. Should I cull?

On the black/gold wigglers....today is day 7 (from eggs laid). The mom spit pieces of food on the leaf. I've never seem her do that before. Does she somehow know their hungry? Of is she as desperate as I am to have ANY survive? I HAVE to do a WC today, or the nitrates (and ph...,because the bubbles are a lot more and harder when the tank evaporated). I'll use the spring/distilled mix, as a success with her fry would give me some real data to compare.... Anything I should be careful of? Or should I do anything about the food spitting?
How about 20% of sales??? Lol. I'll find a way to repay all this help!
OK, we are getting somewhere.
#1- if you don;t have ammonia or nitrite readings, stop using the PRIME. There's nothing there for it to detoxify. Only use it to the water you are using to add to the tank. Make a batch of water, one time, use the prime 1 time and move on.

#2- If you are afraid of things falling into the tank, keep it covered with something, Anything that will keep the crap out of the tank. I'm using foil on my bottles but there are next to a window so I don;t need overhead lighting. If this isn't your case, you may want to use a glass or clear top so that the light can penetrate through it.

#3- Just leave all the babies that are alive alone. No culling at this point ( or for quite a while.)

#4- I only feed live food to the newly swimming fry. For the first couple of weeks at least. I have added the decapsulated brine shrimp eggs to some live shrimp once they get older ( my month old ones have just started eating the non live food) to help save on the cost of shrimp eggs and they (the fry) seem to be okay with it. I think this is a better choice than the first bites. That's MY opinion

As for cleaning up so soon, you lose the chance for the slow swimmers to eat the left overs by removing the food so fast. You'll be doing "natural" culling cause these slower fish will die off from starvation. You also remove the ability for the fish to eat at their leisure in between meal times (which is better for them.) I just vacuum 1 time before the morning feeding. This gets rid of anything they didn't eat the day before. As I've said before, ammonia doesn't happen overnight with fry unless you are extremely overfeeding (which is a very bad thing to do for fry. MORE is not better, MORE OFTEN is better.) So cut back on the food. You need to judge the "fullness" of the fry after being fed. Remember, these fish have very small stomachs at this point so you don;t want to let them over eat. They should have round little bellies, not bloated little bellies. Once they have that, THAT'S how much food you should be giving them. My fry cluster together after feeding and don;t come to the surface for more. To me, that's a happy, satisfied fry

As for doing the w/c, at this point, if the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings are okay, I would wait. The water changes seem to be when you lose the fry so for now, don;t do them unless ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. Routine maintainence changes when dealing with fish fry.

Food spitting, unless the fry are free swimming, those wigglers aren't eating anything she's spitting at them so forget about it. It may be her immaturity or newness to motherhood or you are mistaking her cleaning the fry and spitting them back on to their site. Angelfish don't feed their fry to my knowledge.

Lastly, due to a lack of space and the cold weather, I had to let the second spawn from my Silver Veil/ Gold Marble pair stay with the parents. The MALE has taken over most of the child rearing but the hatch and survival percentage went way down compared to the first spawn that I pulled. Food for thought for those wanting larger quantities of fish to raise and sell. There could a great loss of gene pool letting the fish raise the fry.

20% of sales..........You are okay just getting 20% of the sales of these fish? I'm fine with that. Since I am putting out 100% of the info and direction, an 80% return is an OK return. lol
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Old 01-25-2014, 05:58 PM   #69
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Lol! Yeah..,that's what I meant 😳. Okay. Taking all the advise. I'm on my way home, and will hopefully have nothing to report for a while.

On the black gold....the tank really needs a water change. I swear I think she spit food at them hoping they'd hurry up. It's her 5th spawn, so maybe it is immaturity. She's the one who sulks when they disappear. She'd never done that before. Maybe they (parents) are trying new things too. They don't much care for me pulling the eggs! Lol. I've watched them CLOSELY. So, I can definitely say it was food she spit at them. I even took pics. Maybe it was an accident. Who knows. The wigglers are wiggling a lot less....so they're either getting ready to swim, or die. Probably die, considering the possible bacterial issues, higher ph (evaporation making filter bubbles make a bigger splash) and nitrates of 30. I was trying to wAit, since as you said....my water changes can be fatal 😔.
Okay....crossing fingers. Updates soon...
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Old 01-25-2014, 06:25 PM   #70
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Lol! Yeah..,that's what I meant 😳. Okay. Taking all the advise. I'm on my way home, and will hopefully have nothing to report for a while.

On the black gold....the tank really needs a water change. I swear I think she spit food at them hoping they'd hurry up. It's her 5th spawn, so maybe it is immaturity. She's the one who sulks when they disappear. She'd never done that before. Maybe they (parents) are trying new things too. They don't much care for me pulling the eggs! Lol. I've watched them CLOSELY. So, I can definitely say it was food she spit at them. I even took pics. Maybe it was an accident. Who knows. The wigglers are wiggling a lot less....so they're either getting ready to swim, or die. Probably die, considering the possible bacterial issues, higher ph (evaporation making filter bubbles make a bigger splash) and nitrates of 30. I was trying to wAit, since as you said....my water changes can be fatal 😔.
Okay....crossing fingers. Updates soon...
A reading of 30 ppm is not that bad that it NEEDS to be changed. If you can handle it, wait. If you have the ability, there is a product called a POLY-FILTER (by Poly Bio- marine) which is a white pad that absorbs harmful materials out of the water and may help absorb your nitrates as well as clean out/up your water a bit. I've used them in the past for my marine tanks to take meds out of the water as well as ammonia/ nitrate control. It's a pad that can be cut to fit any type filters or I've placed them in the bubble stream so that water flows through them. Maybe give this a try instead of changing water. I really don;t want you to do anything but let the fry do what they are going to do.
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Old 01-27-2014, 07:25 PM   #71
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Crap. Okay, well the tank with 30 nitrates was the 55g. I didn't get your response, and changed the water (using spring and distilled mix....just a note here on the big tank... I didn't want to lower gh too fast, so I found a weird mix, but it really makes me wonder about bottled water....-the 3 liter ice mountain spring water tests at 3 gh, 2 kh. Distilled is 0 everything. I mixed those for the marble fry tank. When it got very cold, the stores literally ran out of most bottled water. I bought ice mountain spring water in the individual bottles. Luckily I tested it, because it tests gh-9, kh-6. How is the same water testing differently, just because of how it's packaged? It wasn't a 1 time thing either....I use the individual, 3-liter, and distilled to match the gh/kh at 5/3 for the big tank. I've been doing this for a month now, and the tests always come back the same). Anyways, I did my mix, and luckily no one died. A tetra on the other side of the divider has white lips, so I'm not holding out much hope, but so far...all 40 some fry are alive and full bellied. (I'm talking about the Black/gold pair's fry, divided off in main tank). I am ordering the poly stuff NOW, and will not change water again until you think it's safe. Levels are all normal again (nitrates:5), so I should be okay until the media comes in. There's nothing I can do besides hope the tetra doesn't have some contagious bacterial thing right? No meds safe for fry....right? I've tried 50 times to catch the thing, without messing up the fry side....with no luck. I'd have to tear the tank apart to get him out. I know I should have the parents/fry, or just fry, in a separate tank, but I just don't have the electric outlets for another big tank until I move. I keep thinking about pulling the fry, but all the eggs (from this same batch) that I pulled died, so maybe the mom is doing something I can't. Plus, the consistent temp on the smaller tanks is a huge concern right now. And....all of these are excuses to cover the fact that I'm just scared. They are all still alive (hitting this pair's 3-day free swimming record in the morning), and I'm afraid to touch ANYTHING!
Next-
Marble fry: laid on the 16th, free swimming 5 days now. I am just not good with live BBS. Maybe it's the cold? Only a few seem to hatch, whereas the last time I tried, they all seemed to. So, the fry get at least 1 live meal every 24 hours. If the floor is clear (except algae fuzz from the leaves....that has always been there since the parents laid the eggs on it, it's not growing), I feed frozen BBS 1-2 other times. I really hope I'm not overfeeding or under feeding. When I feed, a frenzy of fry attack! The live BBS is gone in minutes. The frozen fall to the floor if not eaten, so they peck at it for hours. I try not to feed again until the bellies look flat, and no one is pecking. I'm just always worried, cause a few ALWAYS look flat bellied. So far, I've only lost 1 baby. But, I'm really trying not to deviate from the plan. On that note, a few questions:
1. I'm trying not to touch the fry tank at all, unless I register ammonia. And, I'm only putting prime in replacement water. So...I siphon out left over food and algae at night (before bed...I'm just not a morning person), and test for ammonia and nitrites. If there's nothing, I do nothing. So far, ammonia only showed (very slightly) once. The question- how low can my water get safely? I'm not a pro with the siphon, and am so afraid to suck up babies, so I pull more water than crap. After 5 days, the tank is only 2/3rds full. At that point, what should I do? And, does the top off "no-no" rule apply here? If I'm siphoning daily, do I still need to take out more water before topping off? Well, they survived their 2nd water change (I matched water gh/kh and temp EXACTLY), but I will do whatever you think is best from now on. Just so I know it's coming, when will I start "hardening" the water, to match the parent and grow out tanks? Or, am I going to keep their water this soft forever and need a new tank?
2. If I pull the next eggs laid, can I even continue with the experiment? All my tanks are bottled water now. I haven't used tap in a month. So, am I even able to put any tap in an egg tank? Or will I be playing with water on fry...to see what they survive in? Is there any "safe" age? What I mean is, when are fry considered "fish"? I understand I have quite a ways to go, but I was just wondering at what point they become more able to handle changes.
3. When do dorsal fins begin to develop? All the fry in both tanks are bigger than the day they began swimming. In the marble fry tank, a couple are developing black dots/tiny raised area/a concentration of black color on top of their heads...or what I'm hoping is the beginning of dorsal fins. Or is it way too soon for that? I'm really just wanting to be sure it's nothing to worry about. Your assistance has helped me get further than I ever have (and remember, this is only the second spawn for this pair....so it really must be your help keeping them alive, as they technically are more likely to die). So, I'm sorry I'm such a pain, but I am learning soooo much! Hopefully I won't have so many questions in the future. In my defense, a lot of this stuff (only change water when necessary, feed only when they're hungry, etc) is the opposite of what all the breeding sites say. I'm sure it's a combination of my mistakes, and the water or bacteria that have left me unsuccessful until now (so far....knocking on wood).
4. So basically: hands off, do less versus more, and keep the water the same as long as possible, right? If fry from either (or both) spawns live, did that tell you that it was the tap water? Or are the results still inconclusive? I promise I'm not trying to jump the gun. I'm just curious, and want to be prepared for the next step with these fry....and what I will do to determine if the water really was the issue with the next set of eggs (marbles are cleaning leaves already). I need to get a better job if I'm to keep buying all this water! Lol. Also, if the black/gold fry live, how long do the parents typically raise them? I know they won't lay eggs again while they're caring for babies. Will they be aggressive to their babies after they reach a certain age, and is that why people pull them and put them in their own grow out tank? Would the parents treat them as a threat to new eggs? Okay, I've pumped you for info enough today 😏. The questions about the actual fry are the most important. I'm waiting on the sponge filter, and just trying to keep everything the same. Oh, last thing....do I have a lot of time before the marble fry (should they live) outgrow the 2.5g? I know you said your fry have been in a jar for a month, but these guys already look bigger! Just trying to be prepared. As always, I thank you soooo much. I know I wouldn't even have gotten this far without your help! Really, truly, thank you. I have yet to pay you in any way (although I completely intend to), and bug you almost daily....yet you keep helping. I'll never be able to thank you enough. Stupid or not, this is really important to me. I think you should start a site, charge for services, and help more idiots like me! I'd certainly direct people straight to you! Thanks.
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Old 01-27-2014, 07:32 PM   #72
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Sorry...forgot 1 thing....is it normal for a group of fry to hang near the top....and another few groups to hang near the bottom in different places? I woke up 1 morning to them ALL swimming higher than usual, and found that the air stone had become disconnected. I now check that constantly. Just wondered why some fry prefer different areas of the tank. As long as it's not a problem, this question can be disregarded. I just wonder a lot 😉
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Old 01-27-2014, 08:04 PM   #73
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Look into micro walter or banana worms. I have lotsa luck with them since bbs is a pita.
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Old 01-27-2014, 08:18 PM   #74
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Did you mean micro water? I heard about something you drop on eggs....but I'm trying not to do extra stuff that might end up bad. Or, micro worms? I saw some micro feed on angelsplus website. Would this be better than the frozen BBS and first bites? Never heard of banana worms...will definitely research! Thx!
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Old 01-27-2014, 11:34 PM   #75
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Man, so much text to read when I have such little time.

Okay, here's the bottom line:
Air dislocated and fish at top usually mean they are oxygen starved and the oxygen rich water is at the surface not the bottom of the tank. If the parents weren't up at the top too, it means nothing where the fry were. Maybe they were just checking out the tank. Make sure your connections are connected so it does not become an issue in the future.
Good that the fry made it through the water change. Maybe there's hope for you yet lol
Why the water was different, who knows? I don;t work for the company!!! ( Good that you tested it, NEVER assume!!!!.; ) )
Temperature and light play a key roll in hatching brine shrimp. If the temp is too cold, they don;t hatch. That being said, my hatch bottles are OUTSIDE and even when the nightime temp went to 34 degrees, I still got hatch because my heaters are set to 90 degrees and there is a fluorescent light behind the bottles so it didn;t matter what the air temp was, they hatched out. NOW, if you are having a problem hatching live and the fry are eating the frozen baby brine, then switch to that. They will do better being fed more often per day so if you have to switch to dead food and the fry are eating it, keep going with that.
The fry start to grow "wings" about 2 weeks old +/- according to temp. At that point, you can consider them fish. lol Once they are growing these fins, you can try to separate some and start to do small water changes in one of the tanks with your tap water. If the fry die off in the tap and not in the Bottled water, I think we found your culprit. Again, more things would need to be tested to see if using an R/O filter will solve the problem so don't run out and buy a machine.

As for the white lipped Tetra, let's hope it doesn't spread anything to the tank. This is yet another reason you want to keep your fry alone.

Now that I know the temp situation with your smaller tanks, it's very possible that the temp just got too cold for them and the eggs died from that. You will never really know until you have a constant in the 2 areas. Both tanks have to have the same control situation in order to eliminate one as the problem. Your's apparently don;t have that so it's all guessing at this point.

As for being afraid to do anything.... Be afraid.... Be VERY afraid. lol The fry are doing okay even without you messing with them ( or only slightly messing with them.) That's a sign that it was YOU causing the problems. Now we have to make sure that it only LOOKS like you were the problem. So the less you mess, the greater the success!
Top off the fry tanks with similar water that they are in. Let's not change anything until they are a bit older.
As for accidentally siphoning fry, I do it all the time. No biggy. I just use a glass container to siphon in to and when I am done, I suck the little renegades who made it into the container back into the siphon hose and drop them back into their tank. If you don't suck hard, nothing happens to them. Don't spit them out too hard either. Just let them drop back in as gently as possible. Remember, their parents SPIT them out so they can take some current. Just don;t go crazy.

As for my method being opposite of what you read from other breeders, here's something to think about. I'm not saying it's what's happening, I'm just saying to think about it: If you all were successful at breeding these fish and selling these fish, commercial hatcheries would lose a lot of money. Is it in their best interest to give you all their secrets and make you successful breeders? Kinda makes you go Hmmmmmmm? Well here's my case, it's been suggested to me to not give all my secrets away. I'm doing that anyway. I have no ax to grind nor do I want to control the market. In fact, I hope a lot of people read this and the Wigglers thread and stop buying the crap fish that are out there and demand better fish to buy. ( You should of seen the fish I saw at a box store today. Forget about being small, they were so disfigured that it made me sick. ) I know that if I had the energy, I COULD control the market because I have the ability and know how to produce massive quantities of fish. I've done it before. What I hope today is to trane some people in different areas of the country and even the world to produce quality over quantity and revitalize the domestic strains. Follow the guidelines for color forms and body shapes and keep the lines healthy. If I do that, THAT would be the feather in my cap over the money I would make controlling the market. I've been told, I am an enigma. I give away more than I take. I learned that from my mentor. I've already been told that my place in heaven has already been reserved so I'm just coasting from here on out ( and making a few fish along the way ) lol

I think I covered the gist of your novel
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Old 01-27-2014, 11:46 PM   #76
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Sorry to ask yet more questions, before you answer the first, but I noticed 2 dying fry earlier in the marble tank. I knew some would, so I've done my best not to freak out. One was very thin...and swam sideways, but the other was completely healthy looking....except...I would swear he was flicking!!! I tested the water, and slight ammonia is present. I just added water yesterday (before you to me not to). I don't want to screw this up. Any reason a big fry would start landing on the bottom, scooting very fast (reminds me of itching) and then repeat? And then die? Could ammonia do this? Everyone else seems ok....but should I add prime? Change water? Do nothing? If I should just add prime....how much? I knew this might happen, and I'm preparing for the worst, but I will be really stressed if I don't at least figure out what is going wrong! This little guy had a lot of the "black concentration" on top of his head. Could this be a parasite? Finally, even after siphoning, the bottom of the tank is covered with like a light spray of what I believe is algae from the plant. Should I remove it now that nothing is attached to it? Then I would know for sure if I'm overfeeding, or it's algae. Whatever it is, it's too small for the siphon to pick up unless I rub it and catch it in the air. I was feeling so good about this 😢. I can't remember if you ever answered....but is the heat lamp a bad idea? Even with it on the tank, the temp still hits 79, and the heater turns on. I've not seen a drop or raise of any more than 1 degree ever, but I'm trying to run through all possibilities. I use a separate dropper for food delivery, and siphon, then I do on any other tank. If there's parasite or bacteria, I'm clueless as to how. My hand did accidentally touch the water for 2 seconds accidentally during the siphon tonight. Man....instruct me please!
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Old 01-27-2014, 11:50 PM   #77
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I meant (remove the plant) in my last questions. And thx for all the answers! Definitely heaven bound you are! I will really try to ask less. Sorry! I know you're busy.
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:00 AM   #78
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Sorry to ask yet more questions, before you answer the first, but I noticed 2 dying fry earlier in the marble tank. I knew some would, so I've done my best not to freak out. One was very thin...and swam sideways, but the other was completely healthy looking....except...I would swear he was flicking!!! I tested the water, and slight ammonia is present. I just added water yesterday (before you to me not to). I don't want to screw this up. Any reason a big fry would start landing on the bottom, scooting very fast (reminds me of itching) and then repeat? And then die? Could ammonia do this? Everyone else seems ok....but should I add prime? Change water? Do nothing? If I should just add prime....how much? I knew this might happen, and I'm preparing for the worst, but I will be really stressed if I don't at least figure out what is going wrong! This little guy had a lot of the "black concentration" on top of his head. Could this be a parasite? Finally, even after siphoning, the bottom of the tank is covered with like a light spray of what I believe is algae from the plant. Should I remove it now that nothing is attached to it? Then I would know for sure if I'm overfeeding, or it's algae. Whatever it is, it's too small for the siphon to pick up unless I rub it and catch it in the air. I was feeling so good about this 😢. I can't remember if you ever answered....but is the heat lamp a bad idea? Even with it on the tank, the temp still hits 79, and the heater turns on. I've not seen a drop or raise of any more than 1 degree ever, but I'm trying to run through all possibilities. I use a separate dropper for food delivery, and siphon, then I do on any other tank. If there's parasite or bacteria, I'm clueless as to how. My hand did accidentally touch the water for 2 seconds accidentally during the siphon tonight. Man....instruct me please!

If it's only 1 or 2 fry, I'd ignore it for now. Yes ammonia could make the fry suffer but ALL the fry would suffer so it's all or nothing for it to be a water issue.
As for the black concentration, there is only one condition that I know of that would discolor the fish before killing it. That would be velvet ( fresh water oodinium.) But that's usually a gold dusting look not a black look so I doubt that's the case. The black was probably just the coloration coming in. If more fry do that, that's an issue and the water change may have caused that. We will not know until the next spawn and maybe not even then. If you act before I answer, I can't always solve the problems. PATIENCE is key to raising fish.
Yes clean the gunk off the floor. What you can do is take a net and put some floss or even a coffee filter in the net and siphon the tank through the net. You can return the cleaned water back into the tank so that you are not changing water, just cleaning it.

Got it?
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Old 01-28-2014, 01:53 AM   #79
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Yes. I think. A lot of the fry have the 2 black dots or a big black dot on head. The dad is a very black marble, so I will hope you're right about color. It's definitely not gold. How could they get something anyways? From the fake plant?
So, I understand no water change. No prime either? Can you "over prime" the tank? I thought it couldn't hurt? Ammonia is a little less than .25. Nitrites are 0. I'm getting ready to test ph. Just wondering if that changed due to my lowering the bubbles. But I did that over 24 hours ago.
I'm sorry that I sometimes try to fix it myself....I am just afraid they'll all die. I will do nothing till you answer. 2 more are on the bottom....all of a sudden unable to get up. I'm very afraid they're all going slowly. But, a lot looking good. Some are a lot bigger than the others, so maybe (crossing fingers), it's just the weak that aren't making it.
On the self filter thing....how do I use net, or coffee filter/net without getting some fry in the process? It's only a 2.5....the smallest net I have (brine shrimp net) would cover half the tank the second I put it in.
Finally, if you already answered....I missed it (and I'm sorry), but what do I do about water level? I spent time trying to remove the floor gunk, so I'm back down to 3/4 full. And, could the heat lamp be hurting anything? Maybe I just can't do this. If I'm the problem....😢.
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:26 AM   #80
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Yes. I think. A lot of the fry have the 2 black dots or a big black dot on head. The dad is a very black marble, so I will hope you're right about color. It's definitely not gold. How could they get something anyways? From the fake plant?
So, I understand no water change. No prime either? Can you "over prime" the tank? I thought it couldn't hurt? Ammonia is a little less than .25. Nitrites are 0. I'm getting ready to test ph. Just wondering if that changed due to my lowering the bubbles. But I did that over 24 hours ago.
I'm sorry that I sometimes try to fix it myself....I am just afraid they'll all die. I will do nothing till you answer. 2 more are on the bottom....all of a sudden unable to get up. I'm very afraid they're all going slowly. But, a lot looking good. Some are a lot bigger than the others, so maybe (crossing fingers), it's just the weak that aren't making it.
On the self filter thing....how do I use net, or coffee filter/net without getting some fry in the process? It's only a 2.5....the smallest net I have (brine shrimp net) would cover half the tank the second I put it in.
Finally, if you already answered....I missed it (and I'm sorry), but what do I do about water level? I spent time trying to remove the floor gunk, so I'm back down to 3/4 full. And, could the heat lamp be hurting anything? Maybe I just can't do this. If I'm the problem....😢.

How could the fry 'catch" something?.... from your other tanks, from nets, from water on your hands, from the cold, from bad water ( this would cause them to get sick not catch an illness), from airbourne problems, from diseases things like snails may be carrying (if you have them in your tank). There's a whole bunch of ways fish can "catch" something. This is why it's so important to be up on what's going on with your fry. Your 55 is a perfect example of a potential disaster. You have other fish in the tank, that are carrying who knows what, from where they came from, and have exposed the fry to whatever they have or may have. How can this be a good thing? As I've been preaching on the wigglers thread, if you can't do it right ( and that takes a lot of tanks and time), you can't expect great results. You may get some results but someone with the proper setup will have much better results. That's just the way it is. Look at it this way: Compare 2 cars that are exactly the same except one uses high grade gas and the other uses diluted water downed sludge from the El Cheapo gas station. The two cars might both reach an eventual destination but they certainly won't get there at the same time. The same applies to raising fish (That's RAISING fish, not just keeping fish. Just keeping fish is a whole other ball game.)

I wish you had posted the PH reading so I could know whether the ammonia level is anything to worry about. Can't answer your question without that info. Same for the PRIME questions.
Unfortunately, there have been too many breaches in the experiment so the falling fry may be the water, the genetics, the food, the temp, etc. There's just no way of telling anymore. At this point, I'm just wanting to see how whatever babies that do survive, do when slowly introduced to your tap water. THAT'S IT. I can't do anything else with this batch. We just have to continue from here as if we aren't experimenting and see what happens. Thankfully, as I've said many times before, the fish give you MANY chances to get it right. They know what they are doing, it's YOU who needs to figure it out

As for being afraid the whole spawn will die, YES, that can happen. Sometimes you need to sacrifice a spawn or 2 so that you can analyze what happened and not repeat the things that went wrong. (See my last comment for what would have been printed here.....)

You can fill the 3/4 full tank with the same type/ mixture water they are in now. That seems to be working for them so keep using it.

As for the self filtering: You need a bigger net then. Use a 5" or 8" or larger net. What you can do is siphon the water with the crud into a container, remove whatever fry get sucked up, then filter the water through the net back into the tank. (I'd use the coffee filter if the particles are very small or the floss if they are bigger chunks.)

The heat lamp: the problem fish have with temperature is inconsistentcy and major fluctuation. If the temperatures fluctuate with the heat lamp, it's a problem. If they stay consistent with the heat lamp, it's not a problem. Do you know that the temps aren't fluctuating when you are not home? If you don't, that's a problem that may be contributing to your current problems. This is why people use thermostatically controlled heaters. They are supposed to keep the water consistent. If your air temps make the heater not keep up, that means you need a bigger wattage.That's what you do.

As for whether you can do this, you can.... anybody can( if they follow a proven path. ) I went from knowing nothing to knowing so much by just doing EXACTLY what my mentor told me to do. Nothing else. Why would I want to deviate from a success plan? Same applies to you. It's sounding more and more like YOU are a portion of the problem because you leap then look to see what you've leaped in to. Try doing the opposite and see what happens. I've offered you a packed and ready parachute that has been successfully deployed for years. But if you want to repack it, how can I assure you that the thing will work?
Just something to think about
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