1 Month into fishless cycle, no changes!

[trennamw]

OK, so I nerded out on fish less cycling for 2 months before starting my first "real" aquarium. I was really sure I knew what I was doing, but obviously I'm missing something. Given I've had some interesting issues with super-soft water, I think it's time to stop reading and start asking.

Tank details:
-My first big aquarium but I've had experience with smaller Betta tanks. I fully understand the nitrogen cycle and have a decent number of A's in college chemistry and biology.
-Marineland 29 gallon kit (Pengiun 100 Bio-Wheel, heater with thermostat, LED)
- I do have the charcoal filter in the Penguin filter; I realize there are those who say "don't" but this filter holds two filter cartridges, so I want to populate the charcoal on this filter with bacteria, and when it starts to wear out I'll add the second filter cartridge, and only discard the first after the second is well populated.
-Powerhead blasting sideways near the surface of the water, and water level a touch low for aeration.
-Intent - Fresh Community Aquarium (danio, cory, a few other tiny schoolers)
-Decor - Plastic plants. Sand, small and medium gravel substrate.

Environmental Stats:
-80-82 degrees (internal thermometer, stick on glass thermometer, and instant read baking thermometer all agree)
-Tap Water, dechlorinated with the correct dose of dechlorinator (various brands)
-pH has been right about 6.5-7
-Using a touch of aquarium salt, slightly less than the instructions on the carton.
**My tap water has very low GH and KH (API dropper test kit turns color at 1 drop, or 17.9 ppm / 1* dKH)** Adjustments detailed below adjust this to a consistent 125 ppm GH, 9 dKH.

Process:
- Calculated 3.7 ml of additive-free ammonia to start things off. Confirmed with API dropper/test tube kit to 4ppm.
- Started with Proper pH 7.0 after months of struggling with other methods of maintaining pH, GH, KH with my super soft tap water. Since then I've finally found success with the Beta Tank without the Proper pH.
- Added a handful of gravel from a healthy tank, but one that hasn't ever cycled (the Beta tank gets aggressive water changes, it has never cycled)
- After no changes for a few weeks I followed advice from both LFSes and PetSmart and added API Quick Start.
- ONE time I saw ammonia suddenly down at .50 with no nitrites or nitrates, but a test the next day had ammonia back at 2-4 ppm so I presume I did that one test wrong.
- The Bio-Wheel on the filter is getting dark colored and smells a little, so I find that somewhat promising ...

Today I got frustrated, read some more, turned up the temperature to 85, and

Ok so the longer story about the soft water ... I've struggled with Bettas in small tanks for the past 6 months, sadly losing a few. I've learned A LOT, including my super soft water being the root of many evils. That and that 1 gallon Mini-Bow aquarium that looks like one of the bigger choices for bettas on the fish store displays (argh).

My favorite fish book has been by Baruchowitz, and recommends Chiclid salts for soft water over crushed coral. I liked the idea, being more exact and controllable. That brought up GH but not KH. Then I tried adding the Chiclid Buffer to the Chiclid Salts, but the KH (in my Betta tank) would be up in a happy place one day, then down to nothing the next.

While wanting to be sensitive about osmotic stress, I've tried a few different things for the soft water. I pay more attention to the Betta tank, as it's "live" and more likely to change.

With the Chiclid Salts and Buffer, even the big tank though would have a big pH drop after a few days. So I tried proper pH, and again this lasted only a few days.

Even Portland's best and brightest LFS suggested Chiclid Salts first, but when I explained what's happening they said to try crushed coral. That (aside from making a huge mess of white powder, even in its nylon sock) has done good things. The pH in the Betta tank and the big tank has been totally stable for 2 weeks now. And the Betta is soooooo happy. He's got lots of new growth on his fins, which had experienced a trace of fin rot, and he's got a bubble nest 2" wide and 1/4" deep. My worst complaint is I've got some diatom/brown algae going on.

Sooo ... the smart thing to do would have been change nothing before I asked everyone here. But what I did instead was, seeing yet another note that cycling works better with a slightly higher pH and temp, I turned up the temp (I'll shoot for 85) and added some more Chiclid buffer (which may raise the KH above what tropical community fish like, but I'm assuming that'll be fixed since I have to do a massive water change before the fish come in anyway).

What next?

And, once it has cycled, what is the most STABLE long term choice for managing my soft water? Just the coral? Or, use the coral but supplement a touch with the Chiclid salts?

I'm following the Baruchowitz book with the stocking scheme too ... Danios, dwarf pencil fish, dwarf cories, dwarf gourami ... he says Pristella but I don't like them and will probably do more Danio or pencil fish instead. (That's another thread).

Thanks all in advance for sharing your knowledge & experience!

 

[threnjen]

Hi! I know all about your water. Because, yeah.

I'm running a fishless cycle right now and the cheapest way to boost stuff for fishless cycle is to throw in a crap ton of baking soda.
If you happen to have a scale put in 14mg of baking soda for every 1ppm ammonia you add to the tank. This will give you enough kH to finish the cycle without a pH crash. It's probably way cheaper than cichlid salts or whatever.

In general, I maintain my water through a mixture of crushed coral in my filter, and a bit of seachem equilibrium. After a water change my TDS (total dissolved solids) are 100 and they become around 200 by the next water change. My kH is 6 or 7 which is even a bit higher than it needs to.
I'm curious how you have problems keeping the pH up as the coral should do this.

What is in cichlid salts?? If it has any sort of sodium I wouldn't use that. All that does is increase your TDS. Don't increase your TDS if you are not increasing it with something useful (calcium, magnesium for gH and carbonate for kH).
Why are you putting aquarium salt in your fishless cycling tank? That does nothing.
Why do you feel you need the "Proper pH" stuff? I don't really think it's necessary. Fish will adapt to whatever pH you have. I mean around here they ARE living in our water Your pH is going to go up anyway when you have the coral in the filter.

Since you are not planning real plants. Your long term plan is probably just the coral. No Proper pH, no Cichlid salts, etc etc. you will drive yourself crazy trying to sort all this out. I use Equilibrium to add some calcium and magnesium for my plants which I have a ton of. You could do a smidge of Cichlid Salts but I wouldn't even go with the full dose. A full dose of equilibrium makes my tanks CRAZY HARD. Then my cardinals and angelfish are sad.

Edit: amended

 

[threnjen]

OK I looked up cichlid salts. They only affect your gH so this is useless when cycling. It is kH that is important for cycling. Put in baking soda. You DO need this to fishless cycle with our water or you will have a crash. I've seen it three times now in three separate fishless cycles. You will crash on the same night you have a big ammonia drop.

Overall I think you are worrying a lot more than necessary about our water. That's intended to make you feel better,not worse.

Who told you to use cichlid salts as a buffer?? It doesn't affect kH at all. At least they told you to use the coral. Was that at The Wet Spot?

edit: sorry, I misread that you used cichlid buffer in the cycling tank, not cichlid salts

 

[threnjen]

How long have you been working on cycling? Your time line is not very clear. edit: sorry, whole title of thread is "1 month"

I've cycled three tanks fishless now with no cycled media in "our" water and I get nitrites around day 11. However I have learned to buffer the water with baking soda, which also happens to give a nice high ph, and turn up the temperature. My first one did take a bit longer but I can no longer recall.

I'm guessing you're not getting anything because of the low pH and temp so far. It makes it reaaaallly slow. Just do the baking soda. Your kH will be through the roof and your pH will stop at 8.4 which will be perfect.

OH the other thing that we need to add for our cycles is phosphorus. You can add that with fish flake. I'm not sure if other types of fish food have phosphorus but fish flake has a good amount.

Also, what city are you in? I could give you some filter media if you are close enough. You would likely need to come to me though, OR, I'm planning a trip to The Wet Spot on Saturday afternoon. I can also give you some powdered phosphorus which is more effective than fish flakes. I'm in the SW-ish suburbs area (I don't want to get too specific publicly, so PM me if interested)

 

[threnjen]

Also, while I acknowledge and occasionally share your annoyance with our water, the upsides are way better

* When we want to invest in SW we are some of the only people who don't have to buy a RODI unit
* We can keep any fish at all because when you start with nothing, you can keep anything
* We know our water doesn't have much/any yucky stuff like heavy metals

 

[trennamw]

Wow thank you so much!!

I certainly don't hate our Portland water; I can see a lot of benefits especially if I were to try a number of other types of tanks in future.

But, I have lost 3 bettas and 4 snails in the past 6 months ... losses probably rooted in my lack of understanding the water here. Taking samples to The Wet Spot, they tell me mine is soft even for the Portland area (good news, if I want to keep Discus later, I guess!!).

Soo ... I turned up the heat, it's right about 90 right now. And I threw in some more of the Chiclid Buffer (which I understand is overpriced baking soda ... beginner's mistake). I didn't do the math first; pH right now is right about 8.2.

My pH issues were before the crushed coral. Yes it was The Wet Spot where I finally got the crushed coral. Before that, using a mix of Chiclid Salts and Chiclid Buffer, GH would be stable but KH and pH would crash after a few days.

The efforts to alter the water weren't necessarily to reach a perfect pH, it was to reach some sort of equilibrium. My little Betta tank, doing 50% water changes every 2 days to keep ammonia down, was going from 6.5 to 4.0 and back again in a 48 hour period, over and over. I lost the 3 bettas in that period.

The Wet Spot explained a pH of 6 is perfectly fine if it's stable, but I've had it running far below that (they started me using the pH kit they use, which measures 3-10 in one test). And worse, it's been changing too rapidly. I'd get the KH up, and the next day the KH would be back to nothing and pH would be way low.

And yeah, when I'm out of the Chiclid Buffer I'll stick with baking soda.

I'll keep your "this much baking soda to this much ammonia" reference for some day when I start a new tank. Or, next week if this tank frustrates me so much I empty it and start over, LOL.

So, for a 29 gallon tank, with a 100GPH filter ... how much crushed coral would you recommend? And how much baking soda?

About phosphorous -- doesn't it promote diatom "brown algae" growth? That's just popped up in the Betta tank, and I really don't want to have to clean it out of the big tank. Or is it inevitable?

What test do you use for total dissolved solids? And do you recommend salt in the tank? Putting salt in the betta tank has helped with the fin rot and it seemed to make him especially happy. I don't feel strongly one way or another about having snails or plants in there right now.

 

[venymae]

Diatoms are usually a "new tank" syndrome and take a week or two to clear. But they DO clear. Just leave them alone and as long as you are cycled and maintain good tank health they will disappear on their own. The 29 gallon will most likely be easier to maintain/stabilize because you won't be having to do drastic water changes. Another thing to consider is adding limestone hardscape (rocks), or coral sand substrate. These can help with soft water. Thren correct me if I'm wrong on any of this!