4+ weeks of Cycling Fishless and no changes...what am I doing wrong?

[xxwolfpackof1xx]

lol honestly i think its your water it has some strong buffers. this is a 10g tank right?

 

[Mr. Limpet]

Sounds about the same as the Nutrafin, and it's the last drop that changes the water. Knowing the GH/KH helps to find out how stable the buffers are in your water which is why I've only done the test once, but I don't put a whole lot of stock in it other than wanting to know. Solid/consistent pH is the key IMO.

Yes, like me if you cure some water in a bucket and let it sit till it's stable, I'd recommend you continue to do that in the future. Mine is fine after a couple hours, so I'd suggest you test it after different intervals and see where it's at and once you find the shortest time frame, you're set IMO (ie mines 2hrs).

Are far as what any guide says about a fish and pH range, don't worry too much about it. Most fish will adapt, with a few exceptions and as long as you acclimate them properly (I prefer drip acclimation), you shouldn't have any problems.

 

[eco23]

My concern is that I'd we can get the cycle moving, we're gonna have a real threat of a pH at the end of it. That's why I had recommended the crushed coral before. For all I know it may provide something now to get this up and running.

 

[xxwolfpackof1xx]

if its a small tank id bottle some tap water and give it to you my tap is 000 and a ph of 6-6.5

 

[librarygirl]

Is it b/c the GH/KH are low that the PH might crash? So far in the tank it's been consistent (around 7.4). I'll keep looking for a smaller bag of crushed coral, I'd hate to spend $20 on a large bag and it's the only size PetSmart had.

My tap is also 0 ammonia, 0 nitrates, 0 nitrites. My Ph out of the tap is higher than yours Wolfpack, from the tap it's about 8.4 but after a while it settles to 7.4, so I don't think that's a huge issue, I'll just have to let it sit out a while when doing pwc with fish so that the PH change doesn't shock them (something I didn't know/do before).

I checked again last night, ammonia is still about 1.5 (seems a bit higher than 1 now), not sure if it's the Safe Start causing the ammonia to read higher (it says it can do that) or maybe it's the little pinch of fish food I put in a couple of days ago. I'm trying to be patient I really am, but I'm gettins so sick of seeing the same colors over and over. I may be getting some gravel from WolfPack's seeded tank this week so I'm hoping that'll work b/c otherwise I'm out of ideas and running fast out of patience. Sorry, not in the best mood today lol

 

[firteen888]

I received a response from Sachaem regarding the email Eco recommended I send.

Question

Hi, I've been trying to cycle my tank for a while now with no luck. are you familiar with any type of disinfectant used in municipal water which your product might not neutralize? Any info you can provide would be a great help.

Answer

Thank you for your question. I am unaware of any type of chemical used in water treatment that would cause such problems. Prime is a powerful reducing agent and should be able render any tap water safe for aquarium use. What seems to be the problem in your system? Could you provide some information about the setup and what you have done in cycle it? Any water parameters would also be helpful.

I guess our tap water isn't the problem. I emailed them again asking if they had any other insight considering me and you are experiencing the same exact situation. Will keep you updated when they write back.

 

[Mr. Limpet]

Is it b/c the GH/KH are low that the PH might crash? So far in the tank it's been consistent (around 7.4). I'll keep looking for a smaller bag of crushed coral, I'd hate to spend $20 on a large bag and it's the only size PetSmart had.

Yes, your pH can be unstable due to weak buffering (my understanding of it), only I'm not sure adding coral is the right soulution though because it won't buffer it, it'll just raise the pH. If your pH has been stable at 7.4, I'd take a wait and see attitude myself and test daily.

 

[librarygirl]

I received a response from Sachaem regarding the email Eco recommended I send.

Question

Hi, I've been trying to cycle my tank for a while now with no luck. are you familiar with any type of disinfectant used in municipal water which your product might not neutralize? Any info you can provide would be a great help.

Answer

Thank you for your question. I am unaware of any type of chemical used in water treatment that would cause such problems. Prime is a powerful reducing agent and should be able render any tap water safe for aquarium use. What seems to be the problem in your system? Could you provide some information about the setup and what you have done in cycle it? Any water parameters would also be helpful.

I guess our tap water isn't the problem. I emailed them again asking if they had any other insight considering me and you are experiencing the same exact situation. Will keep you updated when they write back.

Awesome thanks. Maybe we're just unlucky (well I know I am, in general lol).

 

[librarygirl]

Yes, your pH can be unstable due to weak buffering (my understanding of it), only I'm not sure adding coral is the right soulution though because it won't buffer it, it'll just raise the pH. If your pH has been stable at 7.4, I'd take a wait and see attitude myself and test daily.

I agree, thanks. I'll keep testing and make sure it stays stable.

I'll probably do another test tonight just in case some miracle happened (I am hopeful before I do the tests that THIS TIME it'll be different but usually I'm disappointed). I actually resorted to talking to the tank this morning, like you do with plants. I figured maybe if there's any bacteria in there it'll hear me and start growing. lol

 

[firteen888]

if it's true that Prime would render ANY tap water safe for fish, this is a good sign. The last thing I'd want is for my tap water to be unsuitable for fish. Back to the drawing board.

 

[Mr. Limpet]

if it's true that Prime would render ANY tap water safe for fish, this is a good sign. The last thing I'd want is for my tap water to be unsuitable for fish. Back to the drawing board.

I've already added that info to my Prime profile .

 

[eco23]

In my tank during cycling I added only enough crushed coral to raise the pH by .2-.4 and it raised my alkalinity from very soft to moderate by dissolving the compounds into the water.

I've pretty much reached the conclusion that in both of your cases, something is either IN the water, or LACKING from the water that is preventing your tanks from cycling.

The two solutions on either end of the spectrum are using RO/DI water to ensure the water is free from anything preventing it's colonization, or the other side is adding a product like CC or aragonite to add compounds and buffer.

I know it seems like I've been throwing CC around a lot recently, but there's a common thread.

Remember, the threads we see on the site are when people are having difficulty. We don't see many threads titled "My fishless cycle went perfectly, and I want everyone to know!" lol. The vast majority of people only post with questions of why things aren't going right. That's why we ask so many newbies if their tank is cycled, and they say yep, by using the different guides on this site.

My normal response (which you've all gotten already) is to wait it out...but I think you've all done plenty of that. This is of course an advice website so I won't tell anyone what to do...but IMHO...I'd think it over and either decide to further purify the water (RO/DI), or add something like CC to see if potentially adds some sort of mineral, etc... that your water is lacking.

I'll stick around and help out as much as I can...but choosing one of these two paths is really the last advise I can pull out of my brain to offer.

 

[firteen888]

What is RO/DI water?

 

[rich311k]

Reverse Osmosis, Dionized it is the processes used to purify water.

 

[eco23]

What is RO/DI water?

Reverse Osmosis / Deionized water. Here's a link written by an Admin that explains why he recommends it. It's about saltwater, but the same concept applies. I've also heard of people buying their water from the machines at Wal-mart (not RO/DI, and not necessarily what I'd choose...but an option).
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/articles/articles/123/1/Tap-Water-in-the-Saltwater-Reef/Page1.html

 

[firteen888]

I received another response from Sachaem. Her is what they recommend...

- they recommend using a bacteria booster called Saechem Stability. He says he uses stability in every single tank he ever cycles and it is always extremely effective. he has been using it even before working for the company.

- I told him my tank was dosed to 3ppm and he said that is where the problem lies. 3ppm is too high to grow the BB and is likely what is killing off the bacteria. he recommends keeping it lower than this.

- He also says to dose the tank with Prime every 48 hours to keep it detoxified. even when not doing a PWC.

I know many will disagree with this, but this was what he said.

 

[firteen888]

An RO/DI unit can go for around $500 :0 . Forget that!

 

[eco23]

I received another response from Sachaem. Her is what they recommend...

- they recommend using a bacteria booster called Saechem Stability. He says he uses stability in every single tank he ever cycles and it is always extremely effective. he has been using it even before working for the company.

- I told him my tank was dosed to 3ppm and he said that is where the problem lies. 3ppm is too high to grow the BB and is likely what is killing off the bacteria. he recommends keeping it lower than this.

- He also says to dose the tank with Prime every 48 hours to keep it detoxified. even when not doing a PWC.

I know many will disagree with this, but this was what he said.

I'm SHOCKED he tried to sell you one of their products! Lol. I knew that would be included in your return emails.

You can go whatever path you choose...but please research the products before adding them. I can name 3 people off the top of my head (including 1 person yesterday), and at least a dozen threads in the last months who used Stability and other cycling products and had crashes of their bio-filters within days or weeks of their tank supposedly cycling...ask my buddy Deckape on this site.

Adding the Prime every 48 hours is right during a fish-in cycle, it helps keep the ammo and no2 temporarily non-toxic during the pwc's you have to perform to keep levels below what is damaging to the fish.

Whatever you choose...just do your research.

 

[Mr. Limpet]

The trouble with RO|DI water in a FW, is that it strips everything from the water including essential nutrients. SW tanks use it safely because salt like Instant Ocean (IO) add needed ones back in. I wouldn't recommend it in FW and I don't even use it in my BW setup (while using IO).

FYI: RO|DI units can be had for $130.00.

Here's a webpage that's a good read with some valuable info on buffers/buffering.

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#khbuffers

 

[eco23]

The trouble with RO|DI water in a FW, is that it strips everything from the water including essential nutrients. SW tanks use it safely because salt like Instant Ocean (IO) add needed ones back in. I wouldn't recommend it in FW and I don't even use it in my BW setup (while using IO).

Here's a webpage that's good read with some valuable info on buffers/buffering.

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#khbuffers

I agree with using what you've got. I'd prefer to go the opposite route. My personal conclusion like I said though, is that there is something either IN the water, or MISSING from the water preventing this from happening. Especially in libraygirl's case when she had fish for a long period as well as fishless cycling for all this time and never seeing no2. How long has it been altogether? 10 weeks?

The Admin I consulted with recommended RO/DI to cycle, but I agree with Mr. Limpet, I feel the same way...just presenting the options. I throw my last vote for CC in...and bow out. I obviously don't get paid to convince people to do things (this site actually costs me $, lol), but taking every bit of knowledge I've gained about cycling...I am convinced that something is preventing bacteria from growing. If Prime does truly neutralize everything...by process of elimination...it's something that's not in there they need.