Am I starving my fish?

[NickyB]

Hi all!
I have a 30 gallon tank with 2 Orandas that seem to be doing ok but not that great.
I have one fish that has swim bladder disease. She refuses to eat peas but nibbles here and there on spinach I attach on a clip. I notice every time I feed her soaked pellets, or soaked fish flakes her buoyance problems get worse. I switched to 100% fresh food diet (Brine Shrimp, Blood Worms, Emerald entree, Daphina- a mixture not all at once). I feed them once every other day and her swimming problems are better than I can remember. It’s been 3 months since I changed their diet and I noticed both fish are hanging out close together at the bottom of the tank (for about 2 months). I check regularly for high ammonia and nitrates, everything is normal. When I turn the light on or come in the room they are very responsive. I just can’t help wondering if I’m not feeding them enough; it’s almost if they’re trying to conserve energy, they look sad! The fish themselves don’t appear to be stressed; no tail rot, no blood streaking in the tails or fins, no bloating. I do also have live plants but they rarely hang out at the top of the tank. I do notice the fish with the swim bladder has strange poop. Sometimes it just disintegrates and the membrane and contents will float all over. If anyone could shed some light I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks!
pH 7.0, Ammonia 0 ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 0ppm

 

[Roz]

Hi there,

I'm no expert, but I would think you aren't feeding them enough if they are indoors in a tank.

I have read it is best to give goldfish smaller meals more often, as they have little stomachs and so digest quickly and soon get hungry again. E.g. I give two meals a day aswell as some peas.

My black moor used to get tummy issues and SBD with his last owner, but I give him veggies everyday and now he is fine.

The diet you are feeding sounds great! Perhaps increase to one meal a day, and then two meals a day if the tummy issues don't reappear.

Good luck, Roz






Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Tank Girl]

Feeding once every other day is a starvation diet. Multiple small daily feedings are better.

Your PH should be at least 7.4. 7.0 is too low. A reading of 0 nitrates suggests your tank isn't cycled. Also, If you are using the API liquid test kit, be sure you are shaking bottle #2 vigorously before use. Not doing so will give an incorrect reading.

Sometimes swim bladder issues are due to deformities or injuries and there's nothing you can do to correct it. Buoyancy problems after meals are usually caused by too much or low quality food. Bottom sitting can be caused by a number of things. Not enough room, poor water quality, internal parasites, etc.

You don't mention what filtration you have or what your water change routine is. This would be helpful to know.

 

[NickyB]

The water gradually fluctuates between 7.0 and 7.2, but it’s never been 7.4. Crushed aragonite helped me to get it up to 7.2. I have 2 filters, an Eheim canister and a hang on filter (to provide movement). I also have 4 varieties of live plants. I change the water every 2 weeks and vacuum the gravel. The readings are almost always in range before a water change, literally 0 ammonia before a water change. The water quality is definitely not poor. I decided to change the outlet tube to provide more aeration to the water. They responded to the change, but I still believe it’s the diet. Low oxygen would make them go to the top not the bottom. I was told most people overfed their fish and fish in the wild don’t receive a constant daily diet; feeding every other day would be alright, I just don’t believe it anymore. I will start out feeding everyday once a day like you suggested Roz. Good to know about shaking the bottle vigorously (I don’t do that). I will do that tonight and post results. Thanks Tank Girl.

 

[Tank Girl]

You should be doing weekly water changes. How much water do you change? With goldfish, the more the better. Mine get at least an 80% change every week.

Add more aragonite to get your PH to 7.4 or better.

You say your readings are "in range". Zero ammonia is great, does nitrite stay at zero as well? If you're seeing ANY nitrite your tank isn't cycled. If you aren't shaking the second nitrate bottle, you won't get an accurate reading as I mentioned. Also, if you've been testing improperly, the composition of bottle #2 will be off and will give you incorrect readings even if you do start shaking it now. I would suggest getting a new bottle and follow the directions very carefully.

Fish won't die if they aren't fed everyday, but, just like people, they will only thrive and grow when they are fed proper amounts daily.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[NickyB]

Ammonia and nitrite are zero every 2 weeks. Nitrate before a water change is between 5-10ppm. The live plants utilize nitrate like fertilizer and can help keep NO3 levels down. I actually don’t need a weekly water change because I don’t have a high bio-load at all. (2 powerful filters, live plants, and feeding every other day). I’ll need to increase to weekly water changes since I’m increasing the feeding now. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a 80% water change every week on healthy fish… Seems like a lot but I’m sure it works for you! I change 40% of the water every 2 weeks, once they start producing more waste I’ll do 25% water changes weekly.

 

[Roz]

Dear Nicky,

I think building up the food will help as otherwise, too much food too quickly might aggravate their SBD.

I think 25% water change per week is too little. I would have thought at least 50-80% PWC once or twice a week would be better. I say this because my friend used to have my Black Moor. She did very few water changes and he got sick and developed SBD. Since I have adopted him and undertaken regular water changes, he has recovered and is starting to now grow and thrive

Let us know how you get in - I'll keep an eye out on this post.

Roz


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[NickyB]

Really? 80% per week? You know what I'm going to try it. I've never heard of changing that much water weekly especially with my filtration and their feeding schedule. Something is clearly up with them so it won't hurt to try it. I'll start today and post back. Thanks all!

 

[dandries]

I used to have problems with swim bladder disorder but I switched to spectrum pellets and feeding red leaf lettuce, and haven't had trouble since. That was suggested to me in another forum.

To the people who do 80 percent water changes, are you removing straight water or are you removing water as you vacuum the gravel because I think that is a huge difference. If you do 80 percent water change and you vacuum the gravel the whole time I think you could disrupt your bacteria levels.

If you are not having any trouble with ammonia or nitrite levels then I think the less water change you do a week the better. But that is my opinion.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Tank Girl]

I do 80% water changes and vacuum. It has never disrupted my bacteria levels in the slightest.

I don't know how experienced you are with goldfish, but the notion that "the less water change the better" is simply wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[BBradbury]

Your Tank

Hello again Nick...

I can tell you that to solve your tank problems, all you need to do is follow a sound water change routine and the fish and plants in the tank will be fine. If you change at least half the water every week, you can be assured of a stable and safe water chemistry and healthy fish.

Change large amounts of tank water and change it weekly, and you can skip the testing part. You'll always know the tank water is pure and safe for your fish and plants.

I wouldn't recommend this if I hadn't done it for several years. I don't test the tank water in my tanks, because I change at least half of it regularly. The water is always guaranteed safe.

B

 

[jlk]

I do 80% water changes and vacuum. It has never disrupted my bacteria levels in the slightest.

I don't know how experienced you are with goldfish, but the notion that "the less water change the better" is simply wrong.

Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

I agree as well. The more water you change and the more frequently you change the water, the healthier and happier your goldfish will be. I follow an even greater wc routine, typically changing 80-100% 2-3x a week. Fry tanks receive daily wcs in this range. More serious breeders change this much water daily with all of their fish, not just fry.

You should see improvement in your fish's overall health and appearance once they are being fed a nutritious diet on a regular basis and the wc is changed 1-2x a week on a large scale. Feeding daily veggies in addition to multiple meals does wonders as well and helps to mimic a goldfish's natural diet in the wild. Please ask if you have any questions!

 

[dandries]

I agree as well. The more water you change and the more frequently you change the water, the healthier and happier your goldfish will be. I follow an even greater wc routine, typically changing 80-100% 2-3x a week. Fry tanks receive daily wcs in this range. More serious breeders change this much water daily with all of their fish, not just fry.

You should see improvement in your fish's overall health and appearance once they are being fed a nutritious diet on a regular basis and the wc is changed 1-2x a week on a large scale. Feeding daily veggies in addition to multiple meals does wonders as well and helps to mimic a goldfish's natural diet in the wild. Please ask if you have any questions!

When I said less is better, I meant that you should change as much as necessary to keep the tank healthy. That can vary depending on your set up. I have two filters on a 60 gallon tank (cannister and aquaclear top filter) and live plants. So my set up helps a lot.

I may be old school, but I can't believe that 100 percent water changes are healthy. I'd like to see the science behind that belief.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Tank Girl]

What do you think is "unhealthy" about it?


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[dandries]

What do you think is "unhealthy" about it?


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

New water won't match temperature, ph level, etc of existing water. Changes of this sort stress your fish. More water you change, more extreme the change. Plus if the water is not filtered you are exposing your fish to chloramines or chlorine, which is bad. Yes prime detoxifies it, but it is there.

If you are taking the water from the gravel bed by vacuuming up debris from the gravel then you can risk another cycle.

I recently had an ammonia/nitrite spike that killed 3 of my goldfish. I don't know the exact cause, but one thing my fish vet and LFS asked was if I cleaned the gravel too thoroughly. I hadn't, but you get my point. (My best guess is one fish died suddenly, released ammonia which caused the problems. It's a long story which I posted elsewhere.)

And changing just the water but not removing debris from the gravel is rather pointless, because you are not achieving anything.

So there's my logic.


Sent from my SCH-I605 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Roz]

I now thoroughly vac the gravel and have never found it impacts on the BB levels at all.

I have noticed that if I don't clean the canister filters at least once a month (strictly using aquarium water), I see a rise in nitrates.

Temperature can be matched with a thermometer and some boiled water in winter, but I find the tap water is the same temp as the tank water in summer.

The fish in two of my tanks aren't concerned at all with the cleaning process. In the other tank, they hate it - but I adopted them from a bad place where I think the fish were patted, and they told me they always put the fish in a bucket to clean their tank. Jasper, my largest fish in that tank, is terrified of hands. They say fish don't have memories - but they definitely do! I try to be v gentle in cleaning their tank. Since I've had them, they have thrived - Jasper would be at least several times bigger than he was in November 2013, when he was adopted.

I have found that all of the advice I have been given from lfs seems to be based on telling the customer what they want to hear, with a healthy mix of "old wives tales". When I did initially follow their instructions, the water in my tank became filthy, and I could see my fish were really unhappy.

At the end of the day, I believe that the stress caused by a water change can't be as bad as becoming sick from poor water. I'm not saying you have poor water, or don't care for your fish, but it is what I believe.

I think like other pets, we all care for them in the way we think is best.






Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Tank Girl]

It is simply a myth that large water changes are bad for goldfish. There are keepers and breeders (here and elsewhere) who will tell you the same. If that were true, I would have a lot of dead fish, instead of healthy, energetic, fast growing ones. Fresh, clean water prevents all kinds of problems. There is no substitute for it.

Your logic on cleaning substrate contradicts itself. First you say "If you are taking the water from the gravel bed by vacuuming up debris from the gravel then you can risk another cycle." Then you follow that with "And changing just the water but not removing debris from the gravel is rather pointless, because you are not achieving anything."

Vacuuming substrate on an established tank will NOT interfere with the cycle. The bacteria that live on the substrate won't be removed. Now, if I'm cycling a tank, I'll leave it alone or only vacuum lightly, because some bacteria lives there, but once it's cycled it's fine. Back when I had gravel, no amount of vacuuming ever affected my biological filter, and I vacuumed a LOT. I got tired of doing it and went with a bare tank, but I found it too plain, now I have sand.

The PH from the tap and in my tank is 7.6. I've done so many water changes that I can get the temperature within two degrees just by feel alone, even though I always check it to make sure. Prime works instantly to neutralize chlorine and chloramines, so they are not "still there", they are turned into ammonia, which is temporarily bound until the biofilter consumes it.

I agree with Roz about the LFS telling customers what they want to hear, or telling customers what they think will keep them coming back to spend more money. Not all of them do this, but some can be pretty unscrupulous.

I have too much invested in my fish to take chances with them. If what I'm doing is detrimental, I would have found out LONG ago.

 

[NickyB]

I'm so glad you guys were able to enlighten me. Jlk has always led me on the correct path. So my water parameters basically mean zilch, I need to do large water changes every week regardless. This may sound silly but could anyone share their water change routine? How often do you rinse the filters (in aquarium water of course), or vacuum gravel. Do I even need 2 filters if I'm changing that much water weekly?

 

[Roz]

Dear Nicky

I:
- change 80% of the water twice a week, removing the water through a thorough vac.

- clean the canister filter twice a month.

- remove build up on the inside glass when it needs it.

- replace live plants when they need it.

I use Prime water conditioner and have Eheim filters.

I hope this helps


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Tank Girl]

That's not a silly question at all. I like to change about 80% weekly and I rinse the filter media every two weeks. I also like to keep the glass clean so I wipe that down while I'm draining the tank. I also sift the sand.

I wouldn't say your parameters mean zilch, really, what they tell you is the overall status of your water. The water changes allow you to maintain it that way, which is less stress on your fish.

I would leave the two filters going. No harm in the extra filtration and if one happened to fail, you have the second one going as a back up.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice