Ammonia production equivalent of X fish

[Linwood]

I have a 30G quarantine tank cycling.

This raises a question. I have no immediate plans for what will go into it, though I can probably predict a bit in advance.

I want to keep the biofilter healthy and at adequate capacity. I realize it will scale up and down a bit fairly quickly, but I don't want to be starving it, then suddenly plop in 10 fish and overwhelm it and have a ammonia or nitrite spike.

So I want to keep running some approximation of the right amount of ammonia through it to simulate X fish, whatever X is likely to be the next time.

So... how can I find that out? I suspect at some level things like AqAdvisor is doing that under the covers, but I see no quantitative information to use there. are there calculators that attempt to quantify bioload not in terms of filtration or fish-equivalency, but in terms of ammonia dosing daily?

I really don't know if, in a steady state, 1/2 ml of household ammonia is the same as 5 fish, or I need 3 ml, or maybe 1/8 ml. My goal being to be in the approximate range and know the tank is quickly cycling that out to nitrates before I add fish, and be able to maintain it that way potentially for weeks without fish (since it's a lot easier to stop dosing ammonia the day or so before adding fish, than to relocate a fish based bio-load somewhere else).

 

[Mebbid]

There's an equation somewhere out there where x amount of protein converts into y amount of ammonia. I tried finding it again a while back but never had any success.

If you want to keep it running constantly, I would probably dose it to 1ppm of ammonia weekly for a QT tank. i also like to throw some chaeto in the qt tank along with the fish to help keep any ammonia spike down.

 

[Coyne]

I would just dose up to 4ppm daily or every other day. There are calculators online that will tell you how many milliliters of ammonia you'll need based on the water volume and strength of the ammonia.

4ppm is more than your final stock is going to produce daily. This way you'll have more than enough BB when you start adding fish. The nitrates are going to get high though. Either maintain them by doing PWCs in the meantime, or make sure you do a huge (as close to 100% as you can) water change before you add fish... Night before or morning of.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Linwood]

I would just dose up to 4ppm daily or every other day. There are calculators online that will tell you how many milliliters of ammonia you'll need based on the water volume and strength of the ammonia.

4ppm is more than your final stock is going to produce daily. This way you'll have more than enough BB when you start adding fish. The nitrates are going to get high though. ....

Well, that's partially my point, though I didn't say it. I don't want to severely over-do it either, as then I have to do a lot more water changes to keep nitrates reasonable (though for an otherwise empty tank, I'm not sure whether there is a "high" level for them that matters, is there?)

Yes, I could easily do a nearly 100% water change before adding stock. The plan is to have (almost) nothing in the tank, so I could siphon out all but the 3-4 gallons in the canister and maybe few gallons in the tank.

But does the sudden change from (say, making this up) 200ppm nitrates to 10 ppm nitrates have a negative effect on the bacteria?

 

[Mebbid]

For some reason I was thinking this was salt water. But my statement about 1ppm still stands. It takes a month for BB to starve to death and 1ppm of ammonia is still a huge amount of food. It would also cut back on having to deal with water changes.

Your bacteria only needs to convert enough ammonia to handle the load of food you are going to be adding at any given time.

 

[Linwood]

Your bacteria only needs to convert enough ammonia to handle the load of food you are going to be adding at any given time.

yes, fresh. And exactly -- though that varies by fish, but either way of thinking about it -- so many grams of food (most have percentages of contents), or such and such a fish.

Even 1ppm daily is 25ppm per week approximately, but if I change 50% of the water every two weeks nitrates something like 50->100->50, if I'm doing the math right, which seems reasonable.

Reasonable if that's a reasonable fish load. might that be something like 10 tetras?

 

[Mebbid]

I would be surprised if 1ppm per week couldn't handle the addition of 10 tetras assuming you don't feed them like crazy.

 

[Andy Sager]

Just thinking out loud here:
Why have an empty qt tank running with no livestock in it and need to fiddle with ammonia levels and maintaining the water to not have nitrate levels too high once you do add fish when you can keep a spare filter running in an existing tank and just set up the qt when needed and add the filter? By doing this, you are giving the fish new cleaner water to start out with and an established filter to maintain them? Hmmmm

 

[Linwood]

Just thinking out loud here:
Why have an empty qt tank running with no livestock in it and need to fiddle with ammonia levels and maintaining the water to not have nitrate levels too high once you do add fish when you can keep a spare filter running in an existing tank and just set up the qt when needed and add the filter? By doing this, you are giving the fish new cleaner water to start out with and an established filter to maintain them? Hmmmm

It's a very fair question, and I'm not sure I have a really good answer, other than "this seems easier". But needing to do water changes may end up making me rethink it.

Partly it is space -- I need to leave the tank set up where it is (though it could be dry), or basically the spot for it will disappear. Junk in a house fills all available space.

Partly it is that I don't really have a good way to put the (canister) filter in another tank. I could probably manage, but for a variety of space and logistical reasons it's awkward.

I could just keep a separate tray of matrix in one filter on a tank that has three canisters, and plan on moving it over to jump start a new one. That's probably the best bet, though I'm still a bit unclear as to exactly how complete that would be -- how much is on surfaces and other media than just the matrix. I know the manufacturers like to pretend "all the bacteria runs in and colonizes our bio-media" but it really doesn't work that way.

I did try it sort of that way the first time. I had a 10G tank with a small HOB filter. When I needed to start it, I filled all the media in the HOB from an active tank. I threw in some ammonia to see what happened and -- took about a week for things to cycle through, maybe longer, would have to look. But it wasn't ready. Now that was a tiny filter, on this 30G I have a big huge canister, so it's not the same.

It's a very good question. I'm going to try this for a while, but I may decide it's more trouble than it's worth, especially as soon I'll reach a steady state for stocking and need it less frequently.

 

[Caliban07]

Oh man. There will be a way to do it but I believe it is very complicated. It's very hard to quantify just how much ammonia fish produce.

Anyways I agree with Andy and your latter thinking. Leave the tank dry and run a spare sponge. Just throw a sponge in your tank with the largest bioload. It doesn't have to be in the filter. Then just chuck it in the QT with some temp matched dechlorinated water (as you know)


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Andy Sager]

It's a very fair question, and I'm not sure I have a really good answer, other than "this seems easier". But needing to do water changes may end up making me rethink it.

Partly it is space -- I need to leave the tank set up where it is (though it could be dry), or basically the spot for it will disappear. Junk in a house fills all available space.

Partly it is that I don't really have a good way to put the (canister) filter in another tank. I could probably manage, but for a variety of space and logistical reasons it's awkward.

I could just keep a separate tray of matrix in one filter on a tank that has three canisters, and plan on moving it over to jump start a new one. That's probably the best bet, though I'm still a bit unclear as to exactly how complete that would be -- how much is on surfaces and other media than just the matrix. I know the manufacturers like to pretend "all the bacteria runs in and colonizes our bio-media" but it really doesn't work that way.

I did try it sort of that way the first time. I had a 10G tank with a small HOB filter. When I needed to start it, I filled all the media in the HOB from an active tank. I threw in some ammonia to see what happened and -- took about a week for things to cycle through, maybe longer, would have to look. But it wasn't ready. Now that was a tiny filter, on this 30G I have a big huge canister, so it's not the same.

It's a very good question. I'm going to try this for a while, but I may decide it's more trouble than it's worth, especially as soon I'll reach a steady state for stocking and need it less frequently.

Oh man. There will be a way to do it but I believe it is very complicated. It's very hard to quantify just how much ammonia fish produce.

Anyways I agree with Andy and your latter thinking. Leave the tank dry and run a spare sponge. Just throw a sponge in your tank with the largest bioload. It doesn't have to be in the filter. Then just chuck it in the QT with some temp matched dechlorinated water (as you know)


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

The best way to prevent losing the tank space to other things is to fill it with water and keep it aerated. That will also help make the water better for the new arrivals as it will be "seasoned."

Since QT tanks are short lived anyway, I would use a sponge filter, as Caliban suggested, and put it in a display tank or in the sump ( Can't remember if any of your tanks have a sump ) to hide it. The odds of you having more fish in your QT tank than in your display tank I would think is small so as long as the bioload in the "donor" tank is more than you expect in the QT, that's the tank I would use. ( as previously suggested as well) Having said that tho, when I have a spawn of Angels, I'll put a new sponge filter in with the babies ( maybe 150-200 fish) with nothing more than a squeeze of the parent's sponge from their filter and that's enough to start the BB colony so the tank doesn't have ammonia issues. I haven't had any bad issues just doing that so you just need to get the filter innoculated.


( Oh and YES, it's easier!!! )

 

[Linwood]

The best way to prevent losing the tank space to other things is to fill it with water and keep it aerated. That will also help make the water better for the new arrivals as it will be "seasoned."

Since QT tanks are short lived anyway, I would use a sponge filter, as Caliban suggested, and put it in a display tank or in the sump ( Can't remember if any of your tanks have a sump ) to hide it.

No sump. One display tank (220G) has three canisters underneath, and one display tank (45G) has a canister off about 5' to one side in a corner (no space under).

Yeah, maybe, sort of.

I've spent the last month battling (yet to know if successfully) camallanus worms in both main tanks, which (either coincidentally or from common cause with the treatment) sent both tanks into a deep cycle they have not yet completed.... So I am going to be much more serious about quarantine in the future, probably keeping fish there more like 6 weeks rather than 1-2 as before. I also plan to also apply prophylactic treatment for ich (heat) and worms while in QT. So not sure how "brief".

I also need to think through any process and make sure I can keep anything from QT from getting back into the other tanks (for example I'm plumbing it so I can pump out with a different hose rather than using the siphon, or pump, I use for the other tanks). That doesn't preclude jump starting from the main tanks of course, but it does fit better with having a complete set up that's fully separate all the time. Kind of self-imposed discipline.

I also want to have it ready if there's some kind of babies produced I want to save from my other two main tanks. Though at least I'm pretty sure it won't be angels (I did get all my babies from before, that I didn't cull, taken by a local LFS and all lived).

I'm not quite sure what you guys mean by sponges, or are you thinking of the kind of sponge used with air drive filtration? I have canisters on which I do put a pre-filter, but it's maybe 3/4" thick at most, not that dense. Would it be adequate to jump start a QT? Not sure. Maybe?

I'm going to give this a go for a while, and see how it works.

I may very quickly decide it is way too much work, and change to leaving it dry in standby.

It does beg a follow on question though -- for an otherwise empty tank, does it matter how high the nitrates get? Is there a level where it harms the beneficial bacteria, and/or causes other problems? I'm not talking about never changing water for months at a time, but does it matter if it gets to 400 vs 40 ppm, or some such, that might let me drag it out to a month (when empty)?

 

[NigelK8485]

So, I didn't read the whole thing. But here's a conversion of how much ammonia to add to get a certain ppm of ammonia.

http://www.fishforums.net/aquarium-calculator.htm


I don't think that's what you're looking for though. Why keep it up and running when you can just use biomedia from your established tank to instantly cycle it?

Edit: Oh ignore this, I just read through and saw it was answered.
Sent from my iPad using Aquarium Advice

 

[Andy Sager]

No sump. One display tank (220G) has three canisters underneath, and one display tank (45G) has a canister off about 5' to one side in a corner (no space under).

Yeah, maybe, sort of.

I've spent the last month battling (yet to know if successfully) camallanus worms in both main tanks, which (either coincidentally or from common cause with the treatment) sent both tanks into a deep cycle they have not yet completed.... So I am going to be much more serious about quarantine in the future, probably keeping fish there more like 6 weeks rather than 1-2 as before. I also plan to also apply prophylactic treatment for ich (heat) and worms while in QT. So not sure how "brief".

I also need to think through any process and make sure I can keep anything from QT from getting back into the other tanks (for example I'm plumbing it so I can pump out with a different hose rather than using the siphon, or pump, I use for the other tanks). That doesn't preclude jump starting from the main tanks of course, but it does fit better with having a complete set up that's fully separate all the time. Kind of self-imposed discipline.

I also want to have it ready if there's some kind of babies produced I want to save from my other two main tanks. Though at least I'm pretty sure it won't be angels (I did get all my babies from before, that I didn't cull, taken by a local LFS and all lived).

I'm not quite sure what you guys mean by sponges, or are you thinking of the kind of sponge used with air drive filtration? I have canisters on which I do put a pre-filter, but it's maybe 3/4" thick at most, not that dense. Would it be adequate to jump start a QT? Not sure. Maybe?

I'm going to give this a go for a while, and see how it works.

I may very quickly decide it is way too much work, and change to leaving it dry in standby.

It does beg a follow on question though -- for an otherwise empty tank, does it matter how high the nitrates get? Is there a level where it harms the beneficial bacteria, and/or causes other problems? I'm not talking about never changing water for months at a time, but does it matter if it gets to 400 vs 40 ppm, or some such, that might let me drag it out to a month (when empty)?

Okay, the short answer (lol) is YES, it does matter how much nitrates are in there. When you are dealing with new fish or sick fish, you want to give them the cleanest water possible to acclimate to which means 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates. Since some fish adjust to nitrate levels differently than others, you could do more damage than good having any nitrates in the water to start with.
No, don;t use the tanks with the worm issue to seed the sponge.
These are the sponge filter types we are talking about: Bio Sponge Filter Breeding Fry Betta Shrimp Nano Fish Tank Aquarium Up to 20 Gal
OR

Dual Action Foam Filter Triangle Up to 25 Gal Lee's Pet | eBay

(please note that I chose these links for the pictures only, not as an endorsement of the sellers.)

A fish can live with these type filters for an entire lifetime so how long they are in QT doesn't really matter to the filter. Only what medications you use in the tanks will matter to the bacteria.

Yes, it's a good thing to try to keep separate items for your QT tank and your main tank(s) and not mixing them. It stops a lot of conditions that are transferable.

Hope this helps

 

[Linwood]

Okay, the short answer (lol) is YES, it does matter how much nitrates are in there. When you are dealing with new fish or sick fish, you want to give them the cleanest water possible to acclimate to which means 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates.

No no no... you misunderstood.

My question is whether, if I am keeping the tank going by adding ammonia, and if the tank is otherwise empty of all fish or live animals...

And if prior to adding fish I plan on a near 100% water change...

Whether while it is empty, the level of nitrates really matters with regard to keeping the nitrifying bacteria alive and well. Within reason, not parts per thousand, but if it got up in the 200-400 ppm range, does that really matter so long as it is empty?

And with the caveat before adding fish will dilute that down to much closer to zero (basically just whatever nitrates are in the filter's water, I can siphon the tank empty).

No, don;t use the tanks with the worm issue to seed the sponge.

Well, hopefully the worms are gone, but since it is so hard to prove a negative, at least for a few months I don't want to use any seed material from either tank (it was BOTH of my display tanks that were infected, because I thought everyone was healthy and moved Angels around trying to accommodate their ... personalities.

These are the sponge filter types we are talking about:....

Yeah, both of those are air driven. At present I have no air pumps in use (I have one, but it is so noisy I won't run it in the room with people). And I get plenty of surface agitation from the canisters so there is no need really.

This is what I have now on all the canisters (five of them):

Beckett Replacement Filter Pads (2-Pack)-RFPGHD - The Home Depot

I like them because they are just the right amount of filtration - they can run for a couple months without loading up and stopping flow, but they are fine enough that (most) fry can't get sucked up, and the screw on a threaded PVC pipe so are easy to remove and clean.

I suspect they get some amount of bacteria built up in them, so I could easily swap one from a main tank to the QT, I'm just not sure if it would be enough to have an effect. Plus of course I want to give it a few months to make sure the Camallanus are completely, totally, forever gone. I'm just today ending the last treatment with Levamisole.

So I guess regardless, based on the potential for worms, I won't be seeding from another tank (those are the only "other" tanks than QT), and I'll see how much work keeping this running is.

 

[Linwood]

I like them because they are just the right amount of filtration - they can run for a couple months without loading up and stopping flow, but they are fine enough that (most) fry can't get sucked up, and the screw on a threaded PVC pipe so are easy to remove and clean.

Just to be clear, I am not breeding on purpose. Occasionally something in the community tank has babies. If they hide well and survive they survive, we have mollies and plecos doing well. So I don't want to suck them into the filter generally. But this isn't intended to be a breeder or grow-out tank, but community tank, and the QT is primarily for when we decide to add something more to the community. We MIGHT put fry in it one day, never say never. But that's not the intent. Much more likely is to catch wild fish and keep them a LONG time checking for health and treating. I love that we have so many down here in Florida, but that's really unsafe to catch and combine in an aquarium. Hence why I'm trying to set up a serious QT.

 

[Andy Sager]

I think you are going to have to ask some of the scientist on here or elsewhere as to the effects of high nitrates on the bacteria colonies. I tried to do some research on it but could mostly find references to the effects of high nitrates on the fish. There was one article that sounded like it could damage the bacteria but it didn;t sound that convincing to me. I don't know the answer as this is something I've ever needed to do. I usually set up tanks as needed and use established media OR new media and control the creation of the biological filter through water changes or ph reduction. And now, with PRIME, things are even easier. It just seems to be a lot of work to maintain something "just in case" you need it. I wouldn't be using substrate in this tank so the biological is all in the filter anyway so 100% water change vs 100% new water seems to be a wash to me. Your choice I guess

Please post any answer to this you get as I would definitely like to know myself.