Angelfish breeding

[Andy Sager]

I ordered a divider. Meantime my 6 day olds look more robust than the previous fry done with the methylene blue. These were given only the hydrogen peroxide in low Concentration. I like how they look this time. Fingers crossed, but hopes not up too high. Started green water today.
Have brine shrimp cooking.

Just an FYI, the most nutritious point for Brine shrimp is just after hatching up to approximately 6 hours (ish) so you don't really need to pre make your brine shrimp. Once you know how long it takes for your BS eggs to hatch, you can set up your hatcheries so that you can harvest the nuplii in that time frame. I usually started my hatcheries the day the fry started free swimming because 1) my eggs hatched in under 24 hours and 2) the fry will have been well fed by their yolk sac so they can handle not being fed immediately upon free swimming.
You'll probably only need to feed once on the first day or two then after that, more feedings per day. I set up 3 hatcheries so that the eggs were hatching morning, afternoon and evening. Each feeding would be of newly hatched nuplii. No leftovers from the previous feeding.

 

[ScalareReb]

Just an FYI, the most nutritious point for Brine shrimp is just after hatching up to approximately 6 hours (ish) so you don't really need to pre make your brine shrimp. Once you know how long it takes for your BS eggs to hatch, you can set up your hatcheries so that you can harvest the nuplii in that time frame. I usually started my hatcheries the day the fry started free swimming because 1) my eggs hatched in under 24 hours and 2) the fry will have been well fed by their yolk sac so they can handle not being fed immediately upon free swimming.
You'll probably only need to feed once on the first day or two then after that, more feedings per day. I set up 3 hatcheries so that the eggs were hatching morning, afternoon and evening. Each feeding would be of newly hatched nuplii. No leftovers from the previous feeding.

Free swimmers today- first time for me so this is a breakthrough. It’s day 7. In past it was day 13 before I got hoppers, then they died. This time was using hydrogen peroxide instead of Mb, jar method instead of tank, Strict 82 degrees. I think that sped them up. But still just a small spawn and I have maybe 30 survivors- most eggs were white from the start this time.

 

[Andy Sager]

Free swimmers today- first time for me so this is a breakthrough. It’s day 7. In past it was day 13 before I got hoppers, then they died. This time was using hydrogen peroxide instead of Mb, jar method instead of tank, Strict 82 degrees. I think that sped them up. But still just a small spawn and I have maybe 30 survivors- most eggs were white from the start this time.

Congrats!!! So we can rule out genetics.
Ironically, there is another member having the same issue with his wigglers using M. Blue. I'm starting to wonder if the concentration of M. Blue being sold these days is stronger than before?

 

[ScalareReb]

Aiken has the picture of the eggcrate but it's usually found in the ceiling tile aisle of places like Lowes or Home Depot. There's a 1/4" and a 1/2" hole tile but either will do since you will need to use window/patio screening around it the keep anything from getting in or getting out. The only thing you want passing through the divider is water. Just make sure there is aeration on both sides of the divider and that the Angels are not on the side with any overflow filters or canister filter outflows. You won't need filtration on both sides since the water should be flowing into the 2 sections and the aeration should help keep the water moving.
The eggcrate is easy enough to saw with a hack saw, dremel tool or any fine toothed saw blade. The screening doesn't need to be mosquito or insect proof screening so that there is better water flow through it. Regular old window screening is fine.

Hello fellow fish people!
Well it’s day 10 after the last little spawn and my experiment learning how to raise these little ones continues. Thanks for all the advice so far!
To update:
This is the best I have done so far ( since starting in August 2022), getting some of the fry to the free swimming stage yesterday. Yesterday -for the first time -I have seen them eat the brine shrimp. Plump little orange bellies on a few of them, so I am hopeful. even if I get just one to mature, it is better than the horrible failures before.

It’s fascinating that the fry group that did the best was not the jar reared, but the ones in the little guppy hang-on breeding box! Those I found hatching on day4- the day after I bubbled off majority of the eggs off the Anubia leaf. I was going to throw out the last of the eggs, but a spied 5 little wigglers left among a bunch of white eggs and put them in the guppy box. They are doing the best!

I received tiny “Walter worms” in the mail just in time, and don’t know can’t tell if they helped. He also included some dry stage 1 feeder food, so I put some in. Cleaned it up after a while, and observed. 1 wouldn’t eat and I found him dead this morning, the others swimming happily.

Still not sure if it is poor technique or weak genes. I have gotten an acrylic divider from Amazon ( I’m not very handy with a hack saw) and have mom and dad isolated on the low flow side of the 75 gallon tank. She Should spawn this coming weekend. I don’t know what it is about Saturday afternoon, but that’s usually her time.

I am going to let them handle the eggs this time to give myself a break.
Last time I tried, though, they fungused over quickly - fanning was lax. Usually they really seem so interested and defend the eggs nicely.
Any tricks there? Or just let them keep trying for a few months? I’m in no hurry.

I also bit the bullet and ordered from a breeder a mated pair from discusUSA- a pair of lilac points. They will be here on Feb 2 and I have a tank set up just for them. Hopefully they will educate me. The breeder said -of course they are closely related, but all pure breeds are, so doesn’t think my issues are genes with my black male and white marble female.
Who knows? I have no idea if they are related because I didn’t buy them-I obtained them as adults from the person who bought them from a LFS and was moving away.

I am committed to getting success whatever it takes, and will continue to try as many ideas as you all have until life finds a way.
Thanks again for all the input,
Rebecca

 

[Andy Sager]

The fact that you got swimmers means that at least it's possible. That you didn't get them using your Jar method sounds like there is something wrong with your jar setup. If you go through exactly what you do with the jar setup, hopefully I can correct what's wrong. You can see some of my "examples" here : https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/members/41382-albums14898.html

There is the possibility that you are not going to get large successes with these fish. I noticed with my most recent Angels that I had gone from getting about a 70%-80% sell rate from spawns "back in the day" to only 40%-50%. The techniques I use are the same for over 40 years so it's not them, it's the fish.

A last note, buying proven pairs is always "iffy". Most of the time, they are spawned out pairs or pairs that are close to being finished with spawning. There is also the possibility that the trauma from being moved around will cause the fish to stop spawning. It's always better to get 6-10 small or medium fish of the color type you want and let them grow up in your tank(s) then pair off naturally. You will have better success this way.

 

[Colin_T]

Orange bellies from the newly hatched brineshrimp is great. Keep feeding them, they need to have fat orange bellies all the time.

If the ones in the breeder box are doing better, it will be from better water movement and circulation around the eggs and fry.

It’s fascinating that the fry group that did the best was not the jar reared, but the ones in the little guppy hang-on breeding box! Those I found hatching on day4- the day after I bubbled off majority of the eggs off the Anubia leaf. I was going to throw out the last of the eggs, but a spied 5 little wigglers left among a bunch of white eggs and put them in the guppy box. They are doing the best!

What do you mean by bubbled off majority of eggs?
You don't want to touch the eggs or expose them to air because it can kill them.

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Genetics is part of the issue and your hatching techniques need to be adjusted as well. Virtually all freshwater angelfish bred in Asia are related and they rarely if ever add new bloodlines. They do this for all freshwater fish too, not just angelfish. The closest they have to adding new bloodlines is breeding with another colour form.

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I am going to let them handle the eggs this time to give myself a break.
Last time I tried, though, they fungused over quickly - fanning was lax. Usually they really seem so interested and defend the eggs nicely.
Any tricks there? Or just let them keep trying for a few months? I’m in no hurry.

If the eggs are white or fungus quickly, the male is either shooting blanks or still learning how to fertilise the eggs properly. He only has about 20 seconds to fertilise them before they seal up after being laid. If he doesn't fertilise them in time, or if he goes over an area without eggs, they won't develop and go white quickly.

It takes the adult fish time to learn how to be good parents. They normally eat the eggs a few times then eat the fry when they hatch. After a few more attempts they usually get it. However not all pairs learn at the same rate and if they still eat the eggs or fry after 8 batches, separate them and try them with new partners.

The problem with parent cichlids eating eggs and or fry is directly caused by breeders rearing the fry artificially instead of leaving them with the parents. This problem is purely caused by people not letting the fish be parents. The babies learn fish language, social skills and parental care from their parents if they are brought up by the parents. If the eggs are removed from the parents so the adults can breed again and the breeder gets twice the number of batches per year, the babies don't learn anything and have to develop their own language and skills. Wild caught angelfish virtually never eat their eggs or fry.

The problem of egg and fry eating isn't just an issue with angelfish. Any cichlid that is reared artificially, will have the same issue, maybe not as bad as angelfish but it still happens to other species of cichlid.

Discus have been artificially reared for years and the discus farms have major issues with the fry dying at around 1 month of age. To compensate for this they use antibiotics on the fry at 1 month of age, regardless of if they have any issues. This dying at 1 month of age is caused by the baby fish not being reared by the parents. But the farms want as many eggs as possible so breed the parents, separate the eggs, and breed the parents again. The baby discus normally feed on the parent fish's mucous. This has all sorts of nutrients in but also has bacteria and other microscopic organisms in. The baby fish eat the bacteria and it helps them develop the beneficial bacteria in their intestine. The same as human females giving birth naturally exposes the baby to fecal bacteria that helps kick start the baby's intestinal bacteria.

 

[ScalareReb]

Orange bellies from the newly hatched brineshrimp is great. Keep feeding them, they need to have fat orange bellies all the time.

If the ones in the breeder box are doing better, it will be from better water movement and circulation around the eggs and fry.

What do you mean by bubbled off majority of eggs?
You don't want to touch the eggs or expose them to air because it can kill them.

Hi Colin,
The eggs were in a jar on a leaf with a bubbler tube in the jar . Most fell off after day 3. I removed leaf. The next day there were the 5 little ones remaining on the leaf when I checked for late hatching. Those went in the breeding box.

Most breeding tutorials I have seen showed bubbler tubes in jars on day 1-3. Is that incorrect?

I would love to see these guys rear their own. I have them separated now from the other fish and they look like they are ready. So here’s hoping. I watched them spawn last time and clearly the male is trying as he follows her. They have a little routine, but he sometimes gets distracted by the other fish. Maybe he’ll do better this time with fewer distractions.

RH

 

[Andy Sager]

The problem with parent cichlids eating eggs and or fry is directly caused by breeders rearing the fry artificially instead of leaving them with the parents. This problem is purely caused by people not letting the fish be parents. The babies learn fish language, social skills and parental care from their parents if they are brought up by the parents. If the eggs are removed from the parents so the adults can breed again and the breeder gets twice the number of batches per year, the babies don't learn anything and have to develop their own language and skills. Wild caught angelfish virtually never eat their eggs or fry.

Sorry but I have to disagree. I've artificially raised over a million angelfish fry for sale from hundreds of pairs of fish over the years and have not found that artificially raising the fry dooms them to not being good parents. Some of my pairs became constant egg eaters. Some have been good parents. Some have had one parent be good while the other be bad. It's just a toss up. I've personally had " hand raised" Angel fry grow to be good parents as have my customers. Parenting is a skill that has as much genetic influences and environmental influences as experience and just as not all animals ( including humans) are good parents, not all fish are good parents. There are plenty of studies on this to confirm. There is also the fact that when we artificially raise fish, we keep more fry alive than if they were spawned in a wild situation. In nature, "bad parents" don't get offspring to live and mature so the "parenting gene" gets lost leaving the ones with good parenting genes to be the stewards of the specie. In tank rearing, along with the genetic soup that we create that in nature wouldn't happen, we allow fish to survive that in nature would never survive.
So while in the case of my Monkeys where parenting is a " monkey see monkey do" situation, that is not the case in fish as well as many other species.

As for wild fish in nature vs in a tank, fish lose spawns all the time to predation. Again, good parents protect the spawn while bad parents lose them. In most species, the fry never have any interaction with their parents. ( i.e. Tetras, Barbs, Danios, etc) so how do you explain their ability to know what it takes to spawn? In Angels, the fry leave the parents rather early in life unlike fish like Discus and Uarus which feed the fry with their slime coat. An argument could be made for these species having parental influence but not in Angelfish or Cichlids as a whole.

 

[ghyti]

I agree with Andy. It just seems to be random which pair will be parent raisers and which pair will always eat their eggs. And no you don't have to worry about exposing the eggs to air when you move them, it will not kill them.
You did not bubble the eggs off the leaf. When they hatch, the wigglers will fall off the leaf naturally and leave the unfertilized eggs behind. Good parents will pick them up and spit them back on the leaf. If you pull the eggs and raise them yourself you should always put them in a bare bottom container so they don't get lost in any substrate.

 

[ScalareReb]

Sorry but I have to disagree. I've artificially raised over a million angelfish fry for sale from hundreds of pairs of fish over the years and have not found that artificially raising the fry dooms them to not being good parents. Some of my pairs became constant egg eaters. Some have been good parents. Some have had one parent be good while the other be bad. It's just a toss up. I've personally had " hand raised" Angel fry grow to be good parents as have my customers. Parenting is a skill that has as much genetic influences and environmental influences as experience and just as not all animals ( including humans) are good parents, not all fish are good parents. There are plenty of studies on this to confirm. There is also the fact that when we artificially raise fish, we keep more fry alive than if they were spawned in a wild situation. In nature, "bad parents" don't get offspring to live and mature so the "parenting gene" gets lost leaving the ones with good parenting genes to be the stewards of the specie. In tank rearing, along with the genetic soup that we create that in nature wouldn't happen, we allow fish to survive that in nature would never survive.
So while in the case of my Monkeys where parenting is a " monkey see monkey do" situation, that is not the case in fish as well as many other species.

As for wild fish in nature vs in a tank, fish lose spawns all the time to predation. Again, good parents protect the spawn while bad parents lose them. In most species, the fry never have any interaction with their parents. ( i.e. Tetras, Barbs, Danios, etc) so how do you explain their ability to know what it takes to spawn? In Angels, the fry leave the parents rather early in life unlike fish like Discus and Uarus which feed the fry with their slime coat. An argument could be made for these species having parental influence but not in Angelfish or Cichlids as a whole.

Sadly, eggs last night were eaten. Yesterday evening they did a lovely job spawning for the first time on my breeding cone- not on a leaf. I watched the male follow her well, likely fertilizing most of the eggs. He seemed to do a good job. They defended the eggs all evening. As my divider didn’t work as expected- it left a small space for some fish to pass, a few fish made it across. I checked the breeding cone and at 4 am all eggs were gone. The angels were sleeping in a far corner of the half tank. Who ate the eggs? Can’t be sure this time. My suspicion is the Featherfin Catfish (Synodontis Euptera) who never is seen in the daytime. I found him in the driftwood this morning on the same side. I’ll have to be sure he’s on the other side next time. Only other fish who crossed were 3 Cory’s and 6 rummy nose tetras that show no interest.

So I still don’t know if this pair could be good parents. Will update in 2 weeks after next spawn and will place a little mini hill of rocks in the center of the tank to be sure no-one gets across the too short acrylic divider.

From the last little spawn I still have 3 swimmers alive and doing well. They are now living in their own small bare bottom tank on day 12 eating Walter worms and brine shrimp. Hope they continue to grow.

I love the Walter worms! They are new to me. So easy to culture. Do you use any other cultures for fry?

Rebecca

 

[Andy Sager]

Truthfully, and this may because the fish I bred were not new styles but old "standards" but I only needed to feed newly hatched brine shrimp to my fry until they were large enough to switch to dry foods. As it turned out, the study that was done and I posted in my thread was that newly hatched brine shrimp were found to be the best food to get maximum growth and health to Angelfish fry over any other prepared or live foods. So unless you need to feed smaller food because your fry are too small to eat the brine shrimp, I wouldn't even mess with anything else.

As for who ate the eggs, catfish are big egg eaters but so can the Tetras be so you really won't know unless you see a fish with a really big belly the day after the eggs go missing.

Fry dying after becoming free swimming is not unusual. In nature, only 10% of a spawn is expected to reach breeding adult status. The other 90% die from a number of reasons including predation, weak genetics, undersize, lack of food, etc. What happens when we breed fish in an aquarium, we remove the predation part of the 90% loss but almost everything else is still on the table. So don't get discouraged if you lose some of your fry even when you are doing everything" by the book".

 

[ScalareReb]

Angels growing well

So far so good!

 

[Andy Sager]

So far so good!

 

[ScalareReb]

Great news and a question

The angels spawned again on Valentine’s Day. I put in the divider and indeed the eggs survived last night. The big catfish on the other side. Today we have a nice set of fertilized eggs with only a few white ones. Bravo male!
Tonight they are busy preparing a leaf presumably to move them later.
They are doing a great job team fanning the eggs.
So I will see how they are as parents this go round…

On the other front I have a question/ quandary.
I have 3 almost dime sized from the 1/15 spawn that are thriving in a very small 1 gallon nursery tank, and I want to move them to have more space to swim and grow. My problem is all my tanks are occupied. I do have one 10 gallon tank with 40 Molly fry born about a week ago. ( that was where I planned to move them, but Molly suddenly let loose!)
Another 10 gallon houses a new little larger than nickel sized pinoy I received from a breeder about a week ago, still in quarantine, but looks great and is eating and thriving. I also have 3 tanks with fancy guppies that seem way too wild for theses 1 month olds to deal with - they are so sedate.
Which option seems the best? I am not sure how young angels (pinoy) react to smaller babies, don’t know if the pinoy would attack or bother the 3 month olds. And technically he is not out of quarantine.
Maybe I’m overly worried, but these are the first 3 I’ve managed to raise up from eggs so I’m like a protective mother.
Ideas?

 

[Colin_T]

Buy a large plastic storage container and put them in that.

Mollies and guppies come from much harder water than angelfish and should not be housed together.
Guppies generally occur in water with a GH around 150-200ppm and a pH above 7.0.
Mollies occur in water with a GH above 250ppm and a pH above 7.0.
Angelfish occur in water with a GH below 100ppm and a pH below 7.0.

Mollies in particular suffer badly when kept in soft or acid water.

 

[Andy Sager]

The angels spawned again on Valentine’s Day. I put in the divider and indeed the eggs survived last night. The big catfish on the other side. Today we have a nice set of fertilized eggs with only a few white ones. Bravo male!
Tonight they are busy preparing a leaf presumably to move them later.
They are doing a great job team fanning the eggs.
So I will see how they are as parents this go round…

On the other front I have a question/ quandary.
I have 3 almost dime sized from the 1/15 spawn that are thriving in a very small 1 gallon nursery tank, and I want to move them to have more space to swim and grow. My problem is all my tanks are occupied. I do have one 10 gallon tank with 40 Molly fry born about a week ago. ( that was where I planned to move them, but Molly suddenly let loose!)
Another 10 gallon houses a new little larger than nickel sized pinoy I received from a breeder about a week ago, still in quarantine, but looks great and is eating and thriving. I also have 3 tanks with fancy guppies that seem way too wild for theses 1 month olds to deal with - they are so sedate.
Which option seems the best? I am not sure how young angels (pinoy) react to smaller babies, don’t know if the pinoy would attack or bother the 3 month olds. And technically he is not out of quarantine.
Maybe I’m overly worried, but these are the first 3 I’ve managed to raise up from eggs so I’m like a protective mother.
Ideas?

A new container with the fry by themselves would be the #1 option however, mixing your fry with the Pinoy is a definite NO GO!!
If the water they were spawned in and are growing in is the same as far as GH and Ph, putting them in with the molly fry would be option #2 if the fry are large enough to not fit in the Angel's mouth. If you can use a partition in the tank, that would be better as the molly fry will eventually be more aggressive feeders than the Angels which will become a problem. I would not put them in with the Guppies.
While Colin is right that wild and Asian Angels come from soft water vs the harder water that Guppies and Mollies come from, Domestic Angelfish in the US come from a wide variety of water parameters. My Angelfish hatchery in South Florida had very hard alkaline water and it had no effect on the fry or fish as they bred like crazy. I had 100 pairs and I passed my millionth Angelfish fry sold at that hatchery so it was no fluke. The mollies you have may not have come from hard water either. It all depends on what kind of Molly you have and whether it's an import or a domestic bred ( probably from Florida) variety.
Hope this helps.

 

[ScalareReb]

Update! I have gotten a wonderful spawn last week and today we have our first free swimmers. I have been working on this since last alAugust and with the help of gurus out there in this forum, have finally gotten a successful group to free swimming. All others in the past died and I only got a grand total of 6 fish out of 12 spawns.
What did I do this time differently? Turned off bubbles in tank during spawning, (had many unfertilized eggs before), used methylene blue till wigglers came, then took it out with a little filter remover, used this filamentous marine rope unwound as a way for them to hang on and stay off the bottom of the little tank, have water at 82 degrees. Tiny sponge filter on side of tank. No snails this time, no plant yet.
My next decision is where to put them next. I have the breeding jars for growing, which worked with the other 6, or put them in another tank when they outgrow this tiny one.
Very happy. On to the next stage.

 

[ScalareReb]

Here is the photo of it uploaded