Angelfish eggs

[Andy Sager]

Okay, let's address these issues:
Wiggles on the 5 gal tank floor: DO NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! until they become free swimming. ( You can look at them through the magnifying glass. That's okay ) Don't sweat the dead eggs or anything. The fry don;t need to be attached to anything to survive. As I explained, that was a natural mechanism to keep them from getting washed away in the rivers. I have now 2 bottles of fry that went through exactly what you are describing. I did NOTHING!!!!! but look at them daily to make sure they were wiggling (unfortunately, they still have to become free swimming and just because they are wiggling now does not guarantee they will make that next step. This is a natural occurance. Statistically, with animals that produce multiple young, usually only 10 % of those young survive to become breeding adults. They die from predation, disease, genetics, etc. Nothing you do will change the fact that you are going to lose some of these fry. Thankfully, the predation percentage goes down in a fish tank HOWEVER, you also lose fry to their siblings. I suggest you get used to this fact cause it's gonna happen. )

Wigglers in the main tank:
Algae is a plant and as such does not harm fish or fry. It might look nasty but it is actually filtering your water so it's no big deal that it's there. The fry can be sensitive to water changes at this point so NO WATER CHANGES in tanks where the wigglers are is my best suggestion.
Dividers are great for keeping the big fish from going through them but these fry, once they become free swimming, will be small enough to go through the divider and get eaten by the other fish. My suggestion, remove the other fish to reduce the risk. Once these fry have become stabilized and are eating on their own, move the parents to their own breeding tank before they spawn again. Pull the eggs before they hatch. Return your barbs to the display tank after the Angels are out of it.

You should be turning off the HOB on this tank cause no matter how much filtering you put on the intake, if you do it right for the fry, you'll "burn out your filter's motor" ( That's a quote I got from the Hagen Company's Tech). If you do it wrong, the fry will get sucked up into the filter. Sponge filters eliminate this from happening. That's why EVERY serious fish breeder only uses sponge filters in fry tanks. And since they make different sizes of sponge filters, you can use the correct size for the tank size. Keep in mind, I used 1 filter rated for 20-30 gal tanks in the 10 gal tanks (the fry tank & the breeder tank) and multiple filters in the growout tanks. Even with the right sized filter, you want extra protection when you have a lot of fish growing up in a tank. PLUS, if something goes wrong with one filter( i.e. airline comes off) , you'd have another one or 2 going to support the tank until you fix the problem.

Now, while I appreciate the genius label , I can't take all the credit for these instructions. My Mentor was a GENIUS and most of my instructions come from him and are over 40 years old. You see, THAT was how we produced fish for his store and I continued on to produce quantities of fish for other shops and wholesalers. It's why I am not satisfied when only 1 fry lives out of 100 possible fry. If the fish were cared for properly, the results should be those 100 fry. And here it is, 40 years later, and these methods still work and produce fish in mass and in massive quantity. What you need to realize is that when you are working with younger breeders, it takes a number of spawns to get high hatch results. I'm not talking about 3 or 4 spawns, I'm talking dozens sometimes. So if you can learn how to keep a few fish alive in the beginning, you just do the same thing on a larger scale when you have more fry. That's the beauty of Angels, they give you multiple chances to get it right. It's up to you to get it right as quickly as possible cause even with only a couple of pairs of fish, they can BURY you with fry! It literally takes 8 tanks to handle the fry from just 2 pairs of Angelfish. That's how many fry a solid pair of Angels can produce. And once they get going, there is very little time between spawns to rest.

I hope you realize that this is what you signed up for Breeding fish is work first then fun cause it's just repeat, repeat, repeat.

So enjoy your magnifying glass ( BTW, I use mine to look at the wigglers almost every time I pass the jars. I just love seeing wiggling. lol )

 

[Ronnie05]

I've always moved the eggs and put them in a tank treated with methyl blue with air bubbles flowing right on the eggs.usually have so many I have to give them away.I not raising angles now,now I'm doing gold severams.easily made to spawn with lighting changes.Just make sure to raise brine shrimp for your babies.

 

[Kelly5978]

Thanks so much everyone. Couple things (big shock....oh well, I'm learning as much as I can!) first....the water change. I could NOT get the A wigglers out. Period. She has them deep in the bush. I had not read your response, so my attemp was DURING a water change ?! I only took out 30%, and I match temp, ph, kh, gh of new water. I know next time NO water changes, but not much I can do now, right? Second...eating siblings...could they be? I ask because I thought they would all be clear at this point. Yet, some are definitely darker than the others (is this because mom's black and dad's gold? Or could some be dead, and turning black? Or what?) they seem to jump on each other! They are jumping off the leaf completely....no attachment. The mom scoops em up and spits em back on the leaf, but I'm sure I'll lose most of them when she's trying to catch the first ones swimming off....and the leaf with the remaining wigglers is unattended. She's NAILED the barbs pretty good a few times for coming close, so they're keeping their distance, but I'm sure it won't last . Third....filter. I bought 2 small sponge filters for small "hatch tanks". I will obviously buy more tomorrow, but they don't carry ANY in my town, and I will have to purchase online. I know you're giving me tips for success in the future,(thanks), but for today, I put panty hose over the I intake of my aqua clear 300, and turned it to the lowest level. Are you saying this will break my filter? I won't have sponge filters big enough for the main tank (55g) for at least 2 days. Honestly. I plan to move the "parenting" pair to their own tank as soon as I see what happens with this batch. That tank has sponge filter seeding as we speak. I'm just hoping for a few to survive, so I can see what they'll look like! I plan to pull the other pair's eggs every time, so there shouldn't be any babies in my main tank again....so shouldn't I keep it running with HOB's? So....do I take the pantyhose off? The babies are about a foot directly under the intake of the filter. However, they are surrounded by bush, and haven't been pulled at all so far (about 5 are swimming/hovering above the leaf the others are still clinging too). Fourth....feeding. My town sucks. I will have to order a brine shrimp starter kit online. I went to every pet / regular store in this (and the neighboring 4 towns) with no luck. I have on hand....frozen brine shrimp, dried brine shrimp, pellets, flakes, and they do sell first bites at the local store (but I didn't buy them cause you said you didn't have luck with them). Also, I don't want them to have to swim to the top for food with all the predators. Can I mush anything up? Or mix, or whatever? I hate to watch them die because of me! They've survived A LOT (including yesterday's waterchange, so I'm guessing their hardy). Any tips are welcome! Also, if I have a few unattached now, they will probably all be swimming in the morning. How soon do I "blow them food" with an eye dropper? Can they eat the algae in the tank? And, won't the mom chew and spit food for them (I remember the convicts doing that)? I'm not trying to shirk my responsibility, I just don't have any options for TODAY. I will be so much more ready next spawn! (Thanks to you all ).
B wigglers- luckily, I DIDNT touch the tank before I got your post. I kinda figured i'd be told to not "fix it" lol. So, I have about 20 sitting on the bottom wiggling. Some seem to wiggle less often, and less "enthusiastically". Are these the ones I'll prolly lose? I won't touch anything until they're free swimming. However, it's a MESS in there. Dead eggs everywhere! So, do I need to clean the bottom the second they do swim, or do dead eggs not cause ammonia or whatever? I also noticed 2 white unmoving eggs....with the start of tails. That means they died after hatching right? Do I need to worry about the bubbles anymore....or are they just there for oxygen (not fanning debris)? I'll prolly have more questions if they do swim, but that's it for now . Sorry I'm such a pest, but this is AMAZING, and I'd be lost without your help! There ARE too many conflicting opinions, so it's awesome to have straight forward answers that aren't confusing! Thanks!!!!!!!!!

 

[Kelly5978]

Oh..,and great suggestion on removing the barbs. Unfortunately (I've tried before) I CANT catch them. Period. I also don't have a tank for them ((I currently have cichlids in the 40g, guppies (and babies) in a 5g, the convict "babies" (not so little anymore) in a 20g with parents, the 20g being prepared for the "parenting pair", a 10g overcrowded misfits tank, the 55g main tank, and the 5g with the B wigglers)) I don't think my electric bill would accommodate another tank, but luckily we're moving soon. I plan to move some things around if these guys survive, but at the moment, I wouldn't have a place to put the barbs if I could catch them

 

[Kelly5978]

YouTube is so blurry, but I wanted you to see the light/dark contrast of the wigglers! Aren't they supposed to be clear?
http://youtu.be/OsFA2OQoetE

http://youtu.be/lPic3AqtYHE

 

[Kelly5978]

I hope I did the right thing....most of the SWIMMERS are detached from the leaf this morning (yay!!! Sooooo cool!) the mom makes them all stay right there. I believe she waiting until they're all detached, and also keeping them together. So....I mushed up my frozen brine shrimp the best I could. I mixed it with tank water, and shot it their way...while putting food at the other end for other fish. I KNOW at least 4 of them were munching, and I watched the mom chew and spot pieces into the pile. Her pieces looked REALLY big tho????? My question is...shouldn't I see gold bellies? It's hard to see them period, but I want to make sure they get enough. Mom doesn't seem to understand their mouths aren't as big as hers. Okay....I only used half a turkey baster worth of "food mush/water". Can I save the rest, or does it go bad? Until I get my own baby brine shrimp, can I put vitachem in the food mix....to help with the lack of nutrients?

 

[Kelly5978]

I know that the odds are against these guys....as they have big tank mates trying to eat them, I don't have live food, and some will just die because they weren't strong to begin with. But, I want to do my best to make sure it's not my fault if they do! How do you know if they are getting enough food? I did order a brine shrimp kit, but I had to finely chop frozen brine shrimp (soaked in vitachem), add it to tank water, and squirt it towards them for now. I actually SAW them eating. And they all go crazy swimming in the mix when I squirt it (the mom goes crazy trying to keep them all together). I even saw orange bellies on some (they're pretty far away, and deep in bush, so I can't say for sure that they all had it. Is there any way to know if I'm feeding enough? I read that angelfish fry will eat to death, so I'm only putting half a turkey baster of "food water" in their area. I only see HALF of the fry that I had this morning, so I'm trying to determine if I'm doing anything incorrectly. I'm also worried the filter might be the problem. After your last post, I noticed water was just trickling out of my filter. So, I removed the nylon I had around it. I haven't noticed anyone being sucked up, but they seem to hang on to the side of the leaf, and sway. Could they be sleeping? Is it too dangerous to try to move a few right now? None of the B wigglers made it. Not sure why. They were wiggling away when I left, but unmoving when I got home . Point is, I could put a few A fry over there. I really hope I can keep a few alive....just to see what they'll look like! Whether in this tank, or the little one, when do I start water changes again? Also, the mom's fin is split, and she has a side scrape, from chasing everyone away. Her lips are a little white from pecking everyone but I'm guessing I can't put anything in to help her....right?

 

[Kelly5978]

Sorry for all the questions. Please just answer when you have time....but I REALLY need to know about lighting. I keep forgetting to turn the light off. Can that affect fry? I'm sure it messes up their routine, but now I'm afraid to further complicate things by turning it off. Does lighting affect anything? Thx

 

[Andy Sager]

Unfortunately, adult brine shrimp lacks the nutritional value that newly hatched shrimp has. While you might be getting food to the fry, it may not be enough. How do you tell when the fry have been given enough food? When all their bellies look full. Depending on how many fry you are feeding determines how much shrimp eggs you need to hatch out. Just so you know, for my 30ish fish, I was hatching out about 1/32 of a teaspoon full of eggs, maybe less. Now that they are bigger, I'm doing just a little bit more which gives me enough shrimp for the new fry as well as the older ones. You won;t need a lot of eggs to start. I only feed 1x per day the first couple of days unless I saw empty bellies at feeding time. After that it went to 3x per day. You'll see orange bellies in the fry when you use newly hatched brine shrimp. Skip feedings if they look full at just prior to feeding time.

As for moving the fry, do what I told you before. Move the fry with the water they are in. That way there is no change other than location.

Ok, Are you doing anything incorrectly? Let's see, You have the wrong fry food, an unforgiving setup, the wrong/ non suggested filter, the suggested filters not already set up, your female now has injuries from trying to protect her young and you have no way to rectify this situation. Do you think you are doing anything incorrectly? Only you can answer that question. ( I'd wait to see if you can save any of the fry before you answer )

As for lighting, at this point, the lights may be the only thing saving these fry. In the dark, if the female goes to sleep the fry will certainly be at greater risk. The problem becomes that the female will get tired and stressed at some point so don't let this go on too long or you'll be dealing with other issues with the breeders.

The rest is just good fish sense.

 

[Kelly5978]

What happened to a "learning process"? No, I wasn't ready, but I am more prepared every day! I don't want credit....but how bout some slack? You are right, but I really am trying! I didn't realize that the stores close to me wouldn't carry any of the things I needed! Plus, No excuse, but I thought I had a few more spawns to go before anything would live. And, it's difficult to justify set ton up more tanks, in hopes that I am successful. But, you're right. I've listened, learned, and saved a few fry. I believe I found the problem in the B egg tank....I used 1/4 tap. Somehow I missed that part. Just use RO right? (For pulled eggs) So....I believe since I was doing "nothing", ammonia killed most of them. By the time I figured it out, most were gone. I didn't do those guys justice...but I promised their folks I'd do better next time. .....it's a lot to remember. Now I have a reference to refer to, and will be more prepared next time. I'm putting parenting pair in their own tank today, added PVC pipe to main tank, set up rigid tubing in the 5g (per your instructions), and have the few fry in a different 5g,,,,,doing ok so far. There's only 7, so....I'm learning with them too. Just to be sure....as long as I'm seeding a big sponge filter, I don't need to set up the grow out tank, until they are wigglers correct? I have the 5g for the wigglers, and they are okay in that for a week or 2 after free swimming, right? (Getting a lot of slack for all the tanks, when I haven't been successful yet (geez, it was their second spawn each!!!! And my first with wigglers). I have 2 breeding pair, so soon enough, he'll see how many babies that can mean! Oh, on the parenting tank....how long can babies stay with parents, before I need to remove them to a grow out? Or...is a 20g big enough to BE the grow out tank, and I could just put parents in main tank until they do (grow out)? Again, at what point do I do that? Yeah, I'm bummed that so few survived, but I do get to watch them develop! (So cool). And, both mothers go sulk for a day, and come out with their breeding tubes already out, and getting the plump look again. The black female's scratches healed with a water change, and I've told her we'll do better this time! ?.

 

[bob mccoy]

you are doing good and learning well . keep it up and u will be very successful at it.

 

[Andy Sager]

What happened to a "learning process"? No, I wasn't ready, but I am more prepared every day! I don't want credit....but how bout some slack? You are right, but I really am trying! I didn't realize that the stores close to me wouldn't carry any of the things I needed! Plus, No excuse, but I thought I had a few more spawns to go before anything would live. And, it's difficult to justify set ton up more tanks, in hopes that I am successful. But, you're right. I've listened, learned, and saved a few fry. I believe I found the problem in the B egg tank....I used 1/4 tap. Somehow I missed that part. Just use RO right? (For pulled eggs) So....I believe since I was doing "nothing", ammonia killed most of them. By the time I figured it out, most were gone. I didn't do those guys justice...but I promised their folks I'd do better next time. .....it's a lot to remember. Now I have a reference to refer to, and will be more prepared next time. I'm putting parenting pair in their own tank today, added PVC pipe to main tank, set up rigid tubing in the 5g (per your instructions), and have the few fry in a different 5g,,,,,doing ok so far. There's only 7, so....I'm learning with them too. Just to be sure....as long as I'm seeding a big sponge filter, I don't need to set up the grow out tank, until they are wigglers correct? I have the 5g for the wigglers, and they are okay in that for a week or 2 after free swimming, right? (Getting a lot of slack for all the tanks, when I haven't been successful yet (geez, it was their second spawn each!!!! And my first with wigglers). I have 2 breeding pair, so soon enough, he'll see how many babies that can mean! Oh, on the parenting tank....how long can babies stay with parents, before I need to remove them to a grow out? Or...is a 20g big enough to BE the grow out tank, and I could just put parents in main tank until they do (grow out)? Again, at what point do I do that? Yeah, I'm bummed that so few survived, but I do get to watch them develop! (So cool). And, both mothers go sulk for a day, and come out with their breeding tubes already out, and getting the plump look again. The black female's scratches healed with a water change, and I've told her we'll do better this time! ��.

Why should I give slack? I didn't say you did anything wrong, YOU DID I let the results speak for themselves. All along I have been giving you advice, based on one of the most successful methods of breeding and raising Angels since at least the 1950s. Anyone, anywhere that has followed this method, as directed, has had the same success ratio. Is it the only way to do it? NO! Maybe your way would have worked. Who am I to say it wouldn't? Based on your results, would you say this was a success? That's all that matters.
Ok, to address your issues:
Did you check the water on the "B" eggs to see if there was ammonia present? If your PH is below 7.0, it wouldn't have mattered if there was cause the ammonia is actually ammonium which is not toxic. I believe, and I can only guess at this point, that something else was the cause. You see, if you used the water they were spawned in, and that water had no ammonia in it, and since the eggs and wiggles do not produce ammonia, THAT is probably not the reason for this result. Better luck next time I'd suggest using only the water the eggs were spawned in in the tank or whatever you are moving them to.

Being prepared: Could you have checked with the stores about the things you needed to breed fish before you started breeding? Not knowing what you need is the worst excuse for not being prepared. IMO, you shouldn't have tried to breed the fish then but waited until you had all the info and equipment. Thankfully, there should be a next time so no biggie now, it's spilled milk.

Setting up more tanks: Let me ask this question, " Would you have the ability to add more tanks IF the fish were successful breeders from the start? " Right now, I have 3 spawns of fish living in either a 2 1/2 gal tank or 2- 1/2 gal jars. The fish in the tank have been there since 10/24/13. Do you think that between then and now, there was enough time to set up another tank? In my case, I have the tanks and they are ready to accept the fish. I've just been too busy to move them properly so they are living and growing in their little tank. Could you have done the same thing?

Setting up the growout tank: I'm getting confused as to which you're doing what in so let me just say this: In my method, I take the eggs from the parents and put them in a separate tank using the water they were spawned in, approx 30 days later I put them into a large tank to grow up in until they are salable. I used 10 gals for this first 30 days but if you only have the 5, and it's a large spawn, you may want to either split them up or move them sooner into a larger tank. For the 30 day old fish, the tank they are going into to grow out can be pre=set up but the sponge filters should be in an established tank to get the BB bed started before you put it in the grow out tank. Don't forget, you'll also be using the sponge filter that the fry have been with for the past 30 days as well in this bigger tank cause you know there are enough BB to handle this load.

Setting up the rigid tubing: to use IN the tank or to use FOR the tank? I'm confused. This siphon hose with rigid tubing attachment can be used in any tank. It's just to suck out gunk off the bottom.

20 gal grow out tank: It's really not big enough to grow out more than maybe 20-25 fish to dime size before they would need to be moved into a bigger tank. Not recommended. You want to move the fish as little as possible. Which brings me to the parents: Problems happen when moving fish around. Every time you move the breeders, you set them back from their schedule. Nothing says they'll even breed again. This is why you set them up in a long term tank and don;t mess with them. When they are comfortable enough to breed, why would you ever want to mess that up?

So I think that answers all your concerns.
Let me conclude with this: Yes, you are learning, it may take a few times to get it right and you are trying. HOWEVER, think of it this way: If you and your best buddy were climbing a mountain but didn't have all the right equipment or didn't follow the route that was clearly marked along the trail, and your best buddy fell off the side of the trail which is now on a cliff, and you really really tried to help your best buddy but couldn't save your buddy because you didn't have the right ropes or clinches or whatever, and your best buddy dies from the fall, how important is it that you really, really tried? Had you followed directions or been prepared, none of that would have happened. Right?

Thomas Edison made like 200 attempts to create the light bulb with no success. His answer was I now know 200 ways NOT to make a light bulb. You just learned one way not to have many fry survive. (But here's a secret, you don't have to try 199 more times to get it right. It's already been done. Just copy . )

Till next time