API TEST RESULTS ROUND 4: Please Help Me Analyze...

[OhNeil1969]

Hello Osage_Winter;

Seems like you're getting off topic a little bit with that last post. Concerning your original problem with water parameters: the one thing I'm not hearing is how often are you doing water changes. Water changes are critical in keeping your water parameters in the green. I know goldfish are messy critters, but I think you may be misunderstanding the "leedway" that gives you. In a normal community tank we're performing water changes to control nitrAtes. The ammonia and nitrItes will always be zero. Given the increased waste goldfish produce you're going to have to do more water changes to control your ammonia. I would think of 0.25 ammonia as the upper limit before a water change is mandatory. Ideally you want 0 ammonia. So if after 1 week you read 0.25 ammonia you know you need to perform an immediate water change and consider increasing the frequency of future PWC's. I'm performing bi-weekly changes in a heavily stocked community tank. I knew I was going to be doing more work when I stocked it and was prepared for the extra load. I think you need to approach your goldfish in the same way.

BTW, I know what you mean when it comes to reading nitrAtes on the color card. I think of it this way: the 3 colors that are difficult for me to read are 5, 10, and 20 ppm (5 being easier to read). My rule of thumb is therefore to treat the reading as though it's 20 ppm. It's on the high end of tolerable (some people say 40 ppm is the high end) and as a result I know it's time for a water change. Anyway, hope it works out and GOOD LUCK!

 

[Osage_Winter]

Hello Osage_Winter;

Seems like you're getting off topic a little bit with that last post.

With all due respect, I did in fact mention that I was going to begin a fresh thread on that subject, which I did, in the interest of keeping this about the test results...

Concerning your original problem with water parameters: the one thing I'm not hearing is how often are you doing water changes. Water changes are critical in keeping your water parameters in the green. I know goldfish are messy critters, but I think you may be misunderstanding the "leedway" that gives you. In a normal community tank we're performing water changes to control nitrAtes. The ammonia and nitrItes will always be zero. Given the increased waste goldfish produce you're going to have to do more water changes to control your ammonia. I would think of 0.25 ammonia as the upper limit before a water change is mandatory. Ideally you want 0 ammonia. So if after 1 week you read 0.25 ammonia you know you need to perform an immediate water change and consider increasing the frequency of future PWC's. I'm performing bi-weekly changes in a heavily stocked community tank. I knew I was going to be doing more work when I stocked it and was prepared for the extra load. I think you need to approach your goldfish in the same way.

There's no way I could reference them all right now, but if you go back through the history of threads in this area of the forum (General Fresh Water) you will see where I documented my ABSOLUTE NIGHTMARE when it comes to water changes and what I have been through with them; I realize they're what's necessary to keep parameters in the green...I am completely not disillusioned there.

However, I am not dreaming when I state that I do recall in one of these threads discussing the fact that a "0.25" ammonia reading -- something I have gotten from the VERY BEGINNING of doing tests in my tank -- may actually be a "0" reading taking into account the goldfish bioload. The fish have been alive and seemingly doing well (eating, swimming gracefully, good gill movements, good scale texture and color) under this 0.25 condition going on nearly six months now. I realize there is a difference between surviving and thriving, and I have heard all that before -- but I am still mastering the water change art and since destroying a plethora of home items around the fish tank in the room it's in due to not knowing what we're doing during a water change (including burned and damaged carpeting, ruined carpeting from water spillage) we have kind of given up on the whole thing.

BTW, I know what you mean when it comes to reading nitrAtes on the color card. I think of it this way: the 3 colors that are difficult for me to read are 5, 10, and 20 ppm (5 being easier to read). My rule of thumb is therefore to treat the reading as though it's 20 ppm. It's on the high end of tolerable (some people say 40 ppm is the high end) and a result I know it's time for a water change. Anyway, hope it works out and GOOD LUCK!

Thanks for this; indeed, you're not the first person to tell me that this orange scale is difficult to read...what do you make of my Nitrate results then?

 

[OhNeil1969]

With all due respect, I did in fact mention that I was going to begin a fresh thread on that subject, which I did, in the interest of keeping this about the test results...



There's no way I could reference them all right now, but if you go back through the history of threads in this area of the forum (General Fresh Water) you will see where I documented my ABSOLUTE NIGHTMARE when it comes to water changes and what I have been through with them; I realize they're what's necessary to keep parameters in the green...I am completely not disillusioned there.

However, I am not dreaming when I state that I do recall in one of these threads discussing the fact that a "0.25" ammonia reading -- something I have gotten from the VERY BEGINNING of doing tests in my tank -- may actually be a "0" reading taking into account the goldfish bioload. The fish have been alive and seemingly doing well (eating, swimming gracefully, good gill movements, good scale texture and color) under this 0.25 condition going on nearly six months now. I realize there is a difference between surviving and thriving, and I have heard all that before -- but I am still mastering the water change art and since destroying a plethora of home items around the fish tank in the room it's in due to not knowing what we're doing during a water change (including burned and damaged carpeting, ruined carpeting from water spillage) we have kind of given up on the whole thing.



Thanks for this; indeed, you're not the first person to tell me that this orange scale is difficult to read...what do you make of my Nitrate results then?

I only mentioned the previous post because I thought it was a lot of information for just a "sidebar." I did indeed see that you were intending to start another thread. It was not my intention to seem unaware.

With respect to water changes and ammonia readings. As I said before, 0.25 ppm of ammonia and nitrItes are what I consider the UPPER LIMIT of what can be seen before a water change. Are you saying that if you do a test immediately after a water change that you see no change in those readings? If so then I think something else may be going on. As for the nightmare of water changes: I can totally sympathize. I have a 29 gallon tank that I did manual water changes with buckets and jugs of water. When I got my 60 gallon tank I realized that the manual method wasn't going to work anymore. That's when I invested in an Aqeon 50 ft gravel vacuum. I lay some plastic down in front of each tank and go to work. Both of my tanks are in a carpeted room and I've had no problems. The gravel vac simply plugs onto my kitchen faucet and I'm ready to go.

As for the nitrAtes, I treat all readings as the "same." That is to say, if it's been a week and my ammonia is 0 ppm, my nitrItes are 0 ppm and the nitrAtes are in the "orange" zone then it's time for a PWC. If I want to spread the PWC's out then I'd start testing the water daily after the week is up until it goes into that 40 ppm area which is easier for me to read. At that point I'd cut in half the extra days and add it to my water change schedule. In other words if it took 6 days after the initial week to get to 40 ppm, I'd add 3 of those days to my original schedule (in this case 7 days) and start doing water changes every 10 days. But to be honest, unless it's an easy to remember interval I would just stick with my weekly change.

 

[severum mama]

I do 50% weekly water changes every 7-10 days on 70 tanks. Some are with a Python, many are with buckets. I really cannot imagine what the big difficulty is. Perhaps if you would practice with water changes more often, you could find a routine that works for you without ruining things in the house and your goldfish would be much better off for it.

 

[fort384]

we have kind of given up on the whole thing.

Honestly, if you cannot handle the "intricacies" of performing a PWC, owning a fish tank may not be for you. Performing water changes is a necessary part of responsible fish keeping. All you need is a tube and a bucket.

If you aren't doing regular water changes, this is probably part of your diatom issue as well.

 

[Osage_Winter]

I only mentioned the previous post because I thought it was a lot of information for just a "sidebar." I did indeed see that you were intending to start another thread. It was not my intention to seem unaware.

As a fairly brand new member here, I feel it was a bit unwarranted to make an initial reply to me with this kind of implication or comment -- I made the note that I would be starting a new thread on the other issue; I did, so let's move beyond that...

With respect to water changes and ammonia readings. As I said before, 0.25 ppm of ammonia and nitrItes are what I consider the UPPER LIMIT of what can be seen before a water change. Are you saying that if you do a test immediately after a water change that you see no change in those readings? If so then I think something else may be going on.

No, I'm not saying that; I don't normally do tests right after a water change even though I probably should. What I'm saying is, we kind of fell into the camp of "giving up on water changes" altogether for reasons I can't even go into in detail right now.

As for the nightmare of water changes: I can totally sympathize. I have a 29 gallon tank that I did manual water changes with buckets and jugs of water. When I got my 60 gallon tank I realized that the manual method wasn't going to work anymore. That's when I invested in an Aqeon 50 ft gravel vacuum. I lay some plastic down in front of each tank and go to work. Both of my tanks are in a carpeted room and I've had no problems. The gravel vac simply plugs onto my kitchen faucet and I'm ready to go.

Do you mean that Aqueon water change kit/hose product? I've seen those, but opted to go with the Top Fin plastic vac because we have no sink at all our tank can be connected to based on where it is in our home -- this has also been discussed ad nauseum, and I wish there was another way around this, but there just isn't. We would have to run MASSIVE feet of tubing through the house and down the stairs to get the tubes from where the tank is to a sink, and we're not willing to do that. So the only answer is physically removing the water with vases and buckets or trying the Top Fin vac, which is IMPOSSIBLE to begin syphoning and causes more splashing and turbulence in the tank than it's worth.

As for the nitrAtes, I treat all readings as the "same." That is to say, if it's been a week and my ammonia is 0 ppm, my nitrItes are 0 ppm and the nitrAtes are in the "orange" zone then it's time for a PWC. If I want to spread the PWC's out then I'd start testing the water daily after the week is up until it goes into that 40 ppm area which is easier for me to read. At that point I'd cut in half the extra days and add it to my water change schedule. In other words if it took 6 days after the initial week to get to 40 ppm, I'd add 3 of those days to my original schedule (in this case 7 days) and start doing water changes every 10 days. But to be honest, unless it's an easy to remember interval I would just stick with my weekly change.

If I recall correctly, the API kit instructions claim 40 ppm or so is okay for a safe range...

 

[Osage_Winter]

I do 50% weekly water changes every 7-10 days on 70 tanks. Some are with a Python, many are with buckets. I really cannot imagine what the big difficulty is.

Did you read the other member's empathetic comment with regard to the "difficulty" and "hassle" with water changes? Better yet -- did you notice you mentioned "many with buckets" in your above reply? That's not considered "a big difficulty"? It is to me and my back...

Perhaps if you would practice with water changes more often, you could find a routine that works for you without ruining things in the house and your goldfish would be much better off for it.

We've practiced countless times and the situation never changes. I understand there is a difference between "surviving" and "thriving" as I mentioned before, but the fish have seemingly been okay for six months in this tank without performing regular changes; in fact, they have each grown a good amount since I first put them in.

 

[Osage_Winter]

Honestly, if you cannot handle the "intricacies" of performing a PWC, owning a fish tank may not be for you. Performing water changes is a necessary part of responsible fish keeping. All you need is a tube and a bucket.

Perhaps. This has been considered and debated to an exhausting degree as well, and I believe we are finally reaching the end.

If you aren't doing regular water changes, this is probably part of your diatom issue as well.

If my tap water is the issue -- which Seachem even suspects it probably is -- how could this be the answer to the diatom problem?

 

[fort384]

Did you tell seachem that you aren't doing PWCs?

occam's razor...

Any overfeeding would potentially build up PO4 and silicates and no PWCs means the excess is not being removed. There is no natural way for your tank to rid itself of PO4 and silicates that might be caused by overfeeding (unless you have a bunch of live plants and some high light). Rather than your water initially being full of these things, it is far more likely that a lack of fresh water in your tank would contribute significantly to your problem.

 

[Osage_Winter]

Did you tell seachem that you aren't doing PWCs?

occam's razor...

Any overfeeding would potentially build up PO4 and silicates and no PWCs means the excess is not being removed. There is no natural way for your tank to rid itself of PO4 and silicates that might be caused by overfeeding (unless you have a bunch of live plants and some high light). Rather than your water initially being full of these things, it is far more likely that a lack of fresh water in your tank would contribute significantly to your problem.

They're aware of that element -- and their subsequent reply suggested what I have been suspecting all along, that the problem will only continue in a vicious cycle with tap water coming in after a change (or top off) and then the diatoms taking over yet again from the silicates which aren't being filtered out at the SOURCE. I may need different water for my replenishments, but don't have a way of getting that, so in any event, I am upper-case F - well, you know the rest...

 

[HN1]

How long are you going to be new and refuse to accept ANY advice? Not sure about others, but I for one am tired of your long winded, myriad of trouble, whoa is me posts. Congrats if this is some sort of social experiment. I fail and will leave the island.

If you cannot meet the minimum effort level required to keep your animals properly (as the educated majority tells you to) and you still choose to do so then that's squarely on you.

 

[severum mama]

Did you read the other member's empathetic comment with regard to the "difficulty" and "hassle" with water changes? Better yet -- did you notice you mentioned "many with buckets" in your above reply? That's not considered "a big difficulty"? It is to me and my back...



We've practiced countless times and the situation never changes. I understand there is a difference between "surviving" and "thriving" as I mentioned before, but the fish have seemingly been okay for six months in this tank without performing regular changes; in fact, they have each grown a good amount since I first put them in.

Yes. Maybe they are at their threshold with one weekly water change. I can't understand it, but that's just me. As the co-owner of a fledgling aquatics business, to me water changes are a labor of love and the vast majority of the time I find it to be an enjoyable activity.... even though I do well over half of these water changes by bucket. Honestly, if you do not find any part of maintenance to be an enjoyable activity, such that you refuse to provide adequate water changes to the animals in your care, perhaps it is time to consider a less labor-intensive hobby.

 

[OhNeil1969]

I do realize that many sources quote 40 ppm of nitrAtes to be safe. As I said before, that is what I would consider the upper limit. If at all possible I would prefer that none of my tanks ever see that much nitrAtes (but that is just me). What it really comes down to is finding a good solution to your water change issue. I realize that your situation may be a difficult one, but your fish are depending on you. If you are uncomfortable with the ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte readings you're getting then the responsibility of correcting it lies with you. There are many chemicals out there that can "help" detoxify a tank. They won't get rid of the offending substances but they will bind with them and render them harmless to your fish until you are able to perform that water change. In my opinion though, that is a poor substitute for water changes. Some additives are only temporary; that is they will only work for 24 hours. Also, using those chemicals on a regular basis will become expensive. I know it's difficult for you to perform regular water changes but in the end there really is no way around it.

Finally, I only responded to your post concerning the diatoms as a form of an apology. I did not mean to offend when I commented on the topic. I too am new to this forum. In fact you've been here longer than me. So I can understand your sensitivity to other posters. I feel the same way. That's why I attempted to apologize. So for clarity: I'm sorry!

 

[Osage_Winter]

How long are you going to be new

What?

and refuse to accept ANY advice? Not sure about others, but I for one am tired of your long winded, myriad of trouble, whoa is me posts. Congrats if this is some sort of social experiment. I fail and will leave the island.

Wow -- just this statement alone warrants absolutely no response. Incredible to think I was entering these discussions for a "social experiment." Wow.

With remarks like that, I am glad to see you "leave the island."

 

[Osage_Winter]

Yes. Maybe they are at their threshold with one weekly water change. I can't understand it, but that's just me. As the co-owner of a fledgling aquatics business, to me water changes are a labor of love and the vast majority of the time I find it to be an enjoyable activity.... even though I do well over half of these water changes by bucket. Honestly, if you do not find any part of maintenance to be an enjoyable activity, such that you refuse to provide adequate water changes to the animals in your care, perhaps it is time to consider a less labor-intensive hobby.

An "enjoyable activity"?

No -- we're definitely NOT on the same page here with regard to the hobby level.

 

[fort384]

Doing PWCs would still be better for your diatom issue than just topping off the tank. Each time you add more water without taking some out, you are compounding the problem (if your water is in fact laced with PO4 and silicates, which I am skeptical about). Silicates and PO4 don't evaporate.........

That, coupled with any amount of over feeding would make the problem progressively worse each day that passes without a PWC.

To me, if I thought it was the problem, I would call the water department and ask about silicates and PO4 in your local water supply. None of that stuff is a secret. You might even find the latest test results published on your water provider's website. I would also pick up a PO4 test kit.

 

[Osage_Winter]

I do realize that many sources quote 40 ppm of nitrAtes to be safe. As I said before, that is what I would consider the upper limit. If at all possible I would prefer that none of my tanks ever see that much nitrAtes (but that is just me). What it really comes down to is finding a good solution to your water change issue. I realize that your situation may be a difficult one, but your fish are depending on you. If you are uncomfortable with the ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte readings you're getting then the responsibility of correcting it lies with you. There are many chemicals out there that can "help" detoxify a tank. They won't get rid of the offending substances but they will bind with them and render them harmless to your fish until you are able to perform that water change. In my opinion though, that is a poor substitute for water changes. Some additives are only temporary; that is they will only work for 24 hours. Also, using those chemicals on a regular basis will become expensive. I know it's difficult for you to perform regular water changes but in the end there really is no way around it.

Do you mean chemical response like Tetra's "AmmoniaSafe"? I only used that a handful of times...

Finally, I only responded to your post concerning the diatoms as a form of an apology. I did not mean to offend when I commented on the topic. I too am new to this forum. In fact you've been here longer than me. So I can understand your sensitivity to other posters. I feel the same way. That's why I attempted to apologize. So for clarity: I'm sorry!

I am uncertain what you mean by "a form of an apology" or that you "feel the same way" about the sensitivity issue, but for whatever it is worth, I accept your apology -- I was merely trying to point out that I did in fact start a new thread on the other subject.

 

[severum mama]

An "enjoyable activity"?

No -- we're definitely NOT on the same page here with regard to the hobby level.

Clearly.

 

[HN1]

What?



Wow -- just this statement alone warrants absolutely no response. Incredible to think I was entering these discussions for a "social experiment." Wow.

With remarks like that, I am glad to see you "leave the island."

When did you become a member? How long have you had to research? I'm done. Troll away, you win.

You say it's not worth a response but, yet you respond anyway... Thanks for yet another contradiction.

Oh, and thank you for helping to push off my raft.

 

[Osage_Winter]

Doing PWCs would still be better for your diatom issue than just topping off the tank. Each time you add more water without taking some out, you are compounding the problem (if your water is in fact laced with PO4 and silicates, which I am skeptical about). Silicates and PO4 don't evaporate.........

I understand what you're saying here, Fort, but why would you be skeptical about my water being the issue? All roads seem to lead to this conclusion, from everyone I have mentioned it to; further, are you sure that constantly dumping in water -- even if it's from a change -- wouldn't continue to add silicates in?

That, coupled with any amount of over feeding would make the problem progressively worse each day that passes without a PWC.

Okay...

To me, if I thought it was the problem, I would call the water department and ask about silicates and PO4 in your local water supply. None of that stuff is a secret. You might even find the latest test results published on your water provider's website. I would also pick up a PO4 test kit.

I know it seems like I haven't done ANYTHING suggested to me with regard to these problems, but I have -- any implications that I haven't is simply not true...I have tried cutting back on the feeding. I bought the second filter suggested to me, the AC 110. I have purchased the Seachem PhosGuard. I tried altering the lighting. I replaced my strip test kit with the API chemical variant. I washed off the diatoms from the decor, but they returned. I cannot take everything out of my tank every week and clean it all, can I? I mean, I understand what you're suggesting here -- but to now take this to another level and contact my water department; I don't know. Perhaps I will look into the test you mentioned.