Argh, What did I do wrong??? :(

[adeebm]

Ok, so my 46gal tank was finally all set up and cycled. So I went to petsmart and bought 5 cardinal tetras yesterday. I wake up this morning and they're ALL DEAD!! Temp is 82F, water params are 0,0,5. I don't know what I did wrong. Petsmart has a 14 day guarantee, but I don't want to get anymore before I know why these died... I've never had a fish die within 12 hours. The funny part Is usually I just float new fish and net them in, but this time I added little bits of water to the bag first to acclimate them.

--Adeeb

 

[JohnPaul]

Just out of curiosity, was there any sign of stress from them immediately after you released them into the tank? How long were they in there and doing well before you went to bed?

It does sound odd, and your water parameters sound fine. Could just be bad Petsmart stock.

 

[adeebm]

You know, they were swimming around fine, but they did seem kinda odd. They were never still even when they weren't moving. Sorta twitching and gulping. I though maybe they were just like that. I got them at 3:00ish, put them in at 4:30ish and they were all alive at 7:00. Didn't check after that because the lights turn off and I didn't want to disturb them.

--Adeeb

 

[Mnae007]

Did you put any objects not from the pet store in as a decoration?

If there is no sign of anything you may have done wrong, i whould say you should make sure to clean the aquarium thuroughly, and start out with one fish.

 

[Crepe]

I wouldn't clean the tank. Go back next week to the LFS and purchase another set. Cardinals that have just been shipped in have a high mortality rate. Imagine changing from their wild water to nasty bag water to the store's water to your water in a period of under 3-4 days. Not good.

 

[Jason7894561230]

Agreed there is only one way and that would be to try again but i recjon maybe you should check the water again and you know what i mean just double check

 

[IT-FishGuy]

Yeah go with Crepe's advice

I typically ask when the LFS gets its new fish, that way I can kind of gauge what to expect if I pick something up. I also watch the fish for a while before I buy them. Depending on where your cardinal's were raised will depend on what kind of water they'll need. They tend to like medium to soft water if they were brought in from overseas, if they were raised locally then you'd have to ask what conditions they came from. I'm guessing since this is a chain store then it may very well be coming in from out of the country, but you can always ask. Chances are that they didn't survive the trip.

 

[adeebm]

Well, I asked some ppls, and they think it was oxygen deprivation. I dose with excel daily and had done a WC just before adding the fish. I guess both excel and prime displace oxygen, so both in the same day was too much? I'll try excel every other day, and add an air pump. Better get to petsmart and return these fish before they rot

--Adeeb

 

[Etunes]

I would add a air pump just in case but cardinals do tend to do that. 1 thing to note when you add them acclimate them slowly and take your time. Especially with such a sensitive fish.

 

[Crepe]

There is no such thing as oxygen deprivation unless you completely seal off your aquarium and overstock it substantially. There is however CO2 poisoning which occurs when the respiratory ratio of O2/CO2 changes so that the outlet of CO2 from the gills is inhibited. In order for an organism to function it must take in more O2 than it releases CO2. It is not a 1:1 ratio as you would believe. What happens is that CO2 builds up increasing the osmotic pressure on the gil membranes, limiting gas exchange.

The most important bit of information from this small chemistry lesson is that Gluteraldehyde, the carbon suppling agent int Excel, doesn't makes CO2. It makes bio-available carbon. Studies show that certain bacteria do indeed metabolize Gluteraldehyde into CO2 but it's not substantial. I dose 2x-3x excel and it doesn't change my drop checker, so it's not CO2.

Your fish probably died from stress.

Oh and on a final note, your tap water has a lot of dissolved gasses in it as it was under pressure. Sort of like a bottle of soda, gas is dissolved into the water. It's why we see bubbles in a pot of warming water before it reaches boiling temperature. When temperature goes up, gas solubility goes down and solid solubility goes up. The inverse is also true. So you probably did have sufficient oxygen, among other things, like nitrogen, h2s, and co2. So I doubt it was the water change.

 

[adeebm]

Hmm, that makes sense, it did seem wierd that excel would displace oxygen. How likely is it that they would all die of stress though? Also, I took much longer to acclimate them than I normally do, because I knew they were sensitive. Don't have a drip acclimation kit or w/e but I did add a little water to the bag at a time. How long should I be acclimating them for?

Oh, and a sidetrack: Is it osmotic pressure that kills when theres too much CO2, or CO2 blood poisoning. Because I know too much CO2 causes blood poisoning in humans.

--Adeeb

 

[Crepe]

It is CO2 poisoning. The increased osmotic pressure caused by CO2 prevents CO2 from exiting the gills. You could hypothetically have 100ppm co2 and still have living fish if you had an equally increased amount of O2. As the osmotic pressure of the O2 would force its way into the gill membranes and exchange with CO2.

I just use an air line with an air flow control valve for dripping. Another way it's done is by just tying a knot in the airline to slow down the flow.

Acclimation takes 30minutes to 2 hours (marine stuff normally) via drip. I honestly think it was because the fish you got were just weak. Let the fish get settled at the fish store for awhile. Chances are you are going to be going back to see more vivacious (and far fewer) fish. Also, your LFS probably has close to the same water chemistry as you so they will be better suited for life at your home.

 

[taylorodw]

Okay, my computer has come unplugged 4 times while responding to this post. I have now taped the power cord in. Moving along:

The interaction between Seachem Prime and Excel is specifically recommended against in this e-mail from Seachem:

I'm so sorry to hear about your fish. Flourish Excel does have reducing properties just like every water conditioner on the market. When reducing agents are used in excess, they can potentially reduce the oxygen in a tank because they do not have anything to bind with or reduce. Since you were using more than the recommended dose of Flourish Excel, along with your de-chlorinator, the reduction of oxygen took place. For future use, I would not recommend using the Excel at the same time as your de-chlorinator. I would recommend waiting until later that evening or the next day to dose the Excel, after using your de-chlor. Again, we truly do apologize for your losses and hope that you will remain a loyal Seachem customer. Please let us know if we can be of further assistance. Have a nice day.

For those interested here is the thread: fish kill preminition - Aquaria Central

When coupled with the fact that the fish were gasping, I think that ruling this out would be fool-hardy. Other ideas should be pursued, but following Seachem's advice of waiting a day between using a dechlor and excel just makes good sense IMO. These are the manufacturers here, telling you that using their products on the same day is unsafe.

 

[Crepe]

WOW. I did not know that. So it was the lack of oxygen! Very very interesting. Sorry if I mislead you. I had no idea that excel + prime causes O2 reduction. Very interesting.

 

[taylorodw]

I was extremely shocked upon reading it as well.

I was always under the impression that doing a water change increased both O2 and CO2 levels dramatically, however I guess the Prime removes a lot of the O2? But then why do plants pearl after a PWC?

I always thought it was because the water was saturated with O2. Does this mean that Prime is lowering the O2 saturation thresh hold of the water?!

Crepe, I'm not here to dispute your advice because I have always found it to be well thought out and generally of a higher caliber than most - for all we know, this e-mail from Seachem could be a "catch all" to reduce their liability. By that I mean, the odds of this really killing your fish is 10 thousand to 1, but Seachem is still going to say not to just in case.

Edit: I am not discounting this idea... just saying that, while Seachem suggests not to use dechlor and Excel on the same day, we should not assume this is the only possibility of what affected your fish.

 

[Crepe]

The reasons plants pearl is higher gas concentrations limiting the amount of O2 that is able to be re-dissolved into the water. I'm more intrigued by the fact that Prime and Excel specifically bind to O2. Why not other gases?

edit: oh, it's a re-dox reaction. In that case I find it hard to believe that excel could be the problem...People use as much as 5 times the post-water change dose in their tanks to get rid of algae and have no problems.

 

[adeebm]

Hmm, so was it stress or lack of oxygen lol I think I'm going to try again today. What do you guys think? Oh, and how long should I acclimate them. Maybe I took TOO long last time?

--Adeeb

 

[adeebm]

Also, could it have been the pH? My pH is still 8.2(hasn't budged, no matter what i try). I know cardinals are kinda sensitive and like 6.5-7.0. Is 8.2 just too high for them?

Maybe I'll try Von Rio Tetras...

EDIT: I think I'll pick up some sort of airline valve at petsmart and try drip acclimating them in a bucket this time. It's sort of like waterboarding lol, one drop at a time. Searching on google, it seems a lot of people have problems with acclimating cardinals :/ 50+% loss rate... Maybe drip acclimation in a bucket with some prime will do the trick. They are really pretty fish, cuter than neons IMO.

--Adeeb

 

[Coyote5]

cardinals are hard to establish in a tank... Neons are alot easier to establish. Most the time half of the cardinals you buy will die off.. They are just a hard fish to aclimate.