Bottled bacteria

[Caliban07]

Prefect current example.

See thread: month into fishless cycle, can I add tetra safe start.

This person is disappointed nitrite won't come down. It's it's been 4 weeks but they are continuously dosing ammonia. They want to add 100ml of TSS.

Can you imagine what they would think of TSS if they added it now whilst the cycle is right on the cusp of completing naturally?

Wonder product....


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Jferrante]

no you're right Mebbid, my bad

I think a lot of the problems could also come from poor media that take way too long to aide the bacteria's establishment. Having poor media also can leave your tank quite vulnerable in the long run too.

I think after all this discussion my conclusion would be:

1) that you need really good filter media
2) That it's not an instant cycle and nothing will be. Even old filter media will take a take a minimum of probably 24hrs in the best possible conditions (limited fluctuations in PH and temperature and so on)
3) That if your going to try it, it should be as new as possible.
4) follow everything you'd normally do with a regular cycle.
5) That there is a LOT of variables in a tank when it comes to it establishing a bacteria colony. So it's really hard to tell what's going on and even more difficult to tell if the cycle is working naturally or because of the bottle.


However the biggest questions are still:
-How long does it truly last in the bottle?
-How long will old filter media last when not being used? (when stored in a sealed container with tank water)
-How do they go about making the products (roughly put anyways. Do they scrape slime matrix off media or grow it in a petri dish or something)

I think these questions will help truly put a better understanding and an end to the debate for the most part.

 

[Caliban07]

Nitrifying bacteria are aerobic. That is why they flourish in filters where oxygen is plentiful. Nitrifying bacteria in media removed from the water (exposed to air) should be fine as long as they don't dry out. Wet/dry and trickle filters are environments readily exposed to air yet they are highly effective with nitrification.
There are bacteria that can switch from aerobic to anaerobic respiration depending on the presence of oxygen. Not sure if these are the ones present in the bottles.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

If memory serves correctly. It is the heterotrophic bacteria that can either be aerobic or anaerobic. When in low dissolved oxygen environments, the heterotrophic bacteria that is responsible for the break down of organic compounds begins to utilise ammonia albeit at an inefficient rate when compared with the nitrosomonas bacteria which is a very efficient bacteria indeed.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Delapool]

I've thought the products can work.

For sludge destroying bacteria I've noticed the canister filter (is semi-clear) has less muck on the bottom compared to pre-dosing. No other changes to tank schedule.

In another case it was highly coincidental that the fish picked up a bacterial infection after dosing another sludge destroying bacterial product. A bit wary of them now even though I wonder how they survive in a bottle (eg if oxygen needed).

On nitrifying bacteria, less to go on. I've thought it sped up a cycle but not certain.

 

[Jferrante]

wow you just reminded me of what I was reading in the beginning that kind of started this whole conversation.
Here this might actually help a lot

Chemotroph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nitrosomonas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It actually says Nitrosomonas is a Chemoautotrophic bacteria meaning it can switch between like you just stated. The details on the chemotroph wikipedia page are actually hinting that it may be actually possible for them to survive in a bottle because they can switch like that. as a side note the bacteria in our tanks don't really need high amounts of ammonia but just very tiny amounts and because of slow reproduction they don't have a lot of newcomers to demand more.

 

[Jferrante]

it literally says they use inorganic materials as an energy source so in planted tanks it would flourish if you supplement Iron. It also says they can use Hydrogen sulfide which explains the stench of Microbe-lift and why it's even there in the first place.

 

[Mebbid]

it literally says they use inorganic materials as an energy source so in planted tanks it would flourish if you supplement Iron. It also says they can use Hydrogen sulfide which explains the stench of Microbe-lift and why it's even there in the first place.

Which, if the bacteria is active it means that the entire bottle is basically useless with only a miniscule few remaining bacteria left alive.

Patent US5314542 - Nitrosomonas preservation and reactivation for aquaria - Google Patents

Heretofore, these products suffer from a number of disadvantages:

(a) If the product is a dried or freeze dried culture little or none of the Nitrosomonas cells survive. This type of processing kills all or almost all Nitrosomonas cells. Adding dead cells increases the amount of organic material available for decomposition thereby increasing the amount of ammonia produced. Adding only a few live cells which might survive this type of processing does not have an appreciable effect on reducing ammonia accumulation.

(b) If a liquid culture of Nitrosomonas is packaged in a closed container with an ammonia (i.e. energy) supply present cells may die as a result of oxygen starvation.

(c) If a liquid culture of Nitrosomonas is packaged in a closed container with other species of bacteria present, particularly anaerobic varieties, Nitrosomonas cells will die. Death results from the toxic effects of the waste products, such as hydrogen sulfide, produced by other species of bacteria.

(d) If a liquid culture of Nitrosomonas remains suspended in its own culturing media cells will die as a result of exposure to its own waste products.

(e) If a liquid culture of Nitrosomonas is not maintained under aseptic conditions, cells can die as the result of the waste products of other organisms, the action of organisms which can utilize Nitrosomonas as a food, and the action of organisms which can use Nitrosomonas as a host.

(f) Most of the waste products covered in (c) through (e) are also toxic to other aquarium inhabitants. The addition of these cultures to an aquarium can result in the addition of toxic chemicals causing injury or death to aquarium inhabitants.

(g) If a liquid culture as described in (b) through (e) above, is kept under refrigeration, the Nitrosomonas cells can remain alive for a limited time. The limited shelf and high cost for maintaining temperature control has restricted the use of such products.

(h) Any Nitrosomonas cells which survive the packaging procedures described in (a) through (e) and (g), above, will be in a state of metabolic dormancy. When added to an aquarium system, dormant cells require several days before metabolic activity and the ability to oxidize ammonia returns, assuming ammonia is present. During this "lag" period, ammonia levels accumulate to toxic levels killing or injuring aquarium inhabitants.

 

[Jferrante]

Very nice find Mebbid. Seems like the bottle bacteria could work but you'd have to get each kind separately bottled and reactivate it with a ton of ammonia before being able to use it. you could probably use the Nitrosomonas as directed and then add the others after it converts a bunch of it to nitrite. This would all probably take just as long as a normal cycle and only be practical in massive aquariums and saltwater.
Most definitely a fishless cycle with 200ppm of ammonia lol

 

[Jferrante]

I'm still slightly curious about the Chemoautotrophic aspect of Nitrosomonas and how this patent comes to it's conclusion given that it is a chemoautotrophic bacteria. Maybe in conditions like an underwater volcano where it has access to tons of elements and porous materials and has lots of water movement.

 

[enrgizerbunny]

Its not quite soo cut and dry. The bacteria you are referring to are obligate aerobes. They require high concentrations of oxygen or die.

Nitrifying bacteria work through an entirely different mechanism and are obligate lithoautotrophs. They require the oxygen to perform the breakdown of ammonia (NH3) into nitrite (NO2) and then further into nitrate (NO3) without the oxygen they cannot perform this function. However, when conditions aren't optimal, they can go dormant for a short period of time. Usually described as long as a month before dying.

I was mainly pointing out that any bacteria in our filters could not be anaerobes. I don't know about going dormant, but I know the colonies of BB in a cycled aquarium are large enough that you won't have a complete loss if you take the fish out for a month, but your colony will be reduced.

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Aquarium Advice mobile app