Bottled bacteria

[Jferrante]

Seachem's matrix is unique in that it is has the desired buoyancy.

There is shady people but your being a pessimist to believe its the majority. Just like how so many think earth is doomed because of humans and because of this the have doubt and discouragement for those that try so hard to make things right and to repair damage done by others. I can say the numbers of helpful people exceed those that do harm and the disillusion is only because of how easy it is to destroy things and sell the scraps.


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[Jferrante]

I agree about false advertising but you have to understand there are two sides to every product. The producer and the inventor.
One is thinking about money the other about it being genuinely helpful and this where compromises take place and where we the consumer need to find out what the sacrificed for profit.


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[Caliban07]

I agree about false advertising but you have to understand there are two sides to every product. The producer and the inventor.
One is thinking about money the other about it being genuinely helpful and this where compromises take place and where we the consumer need to find out what the sacrificed for profit.


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If these bacteria in a bottle worked they would be sold out. They would already be in everybody's cabinet and common knowledge amongst hobbyist. It's a marketing ploy. Dr Tim is a very clever salesman in a lab coat. Even my pets at home chain store has its own bacteria in a bottle product.

So little is actually known about the bacteria that contributes towards the nitrogen cycle that scientists are still unsure which strain is responsible for nitrite nitrification. Is it nitrobacter or nitrospira? Are saltwater strains the same as freshwater? Are the strains of bacteria cultivated in a water treatment plant the same that exist in our aquarium's? Is the exact strain the same in my aquarium than it is to yours?

So many unanswered questions. It's not feasible to believe that an autotrophic bacteria can survive in a bottle on a shelf with no food source or oxygen.



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[Caliban07]

I use it during my water changes. I was always under the impression it was food for the bacteria and not the bacteria itself but I also think to much

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I came across a paper which suggested the same thing.


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[Jferrante]

I don't think they'd be sold out because of the common negative stigma about bacteria. Everyone is spraying their counters with chemicals and trying to sanitize everything like theres an epidemic in their kitchen. Especially new people to the hobby.
Also somethings are slow to catch on. The science is out there even if it is new. Its important information to know types of bacteria that clean and filter water for water quality in the wild as well in a tank.
With all the pollutants being dumped in lakes and ocean and other drifting garbage you'd need to know whats changing in the water and ways to combat other problems that may promote disease in fish and spread throughout the ecosystem.


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[Stacey W.]

I don't think they'd be sold out because of the common negative stigma about bacteria. Everyone is spraying their counters with chemicals and trying to sanitize everything like theres an epidemic in their kitchen. Especially new people to the hobby.
Also somethings are slow to catch on. The science is out there even if it is new. Its important information to know types of bacteria that clean and filter water for water quality in the wild as well in a tank.
With all the pollutants being dumped in lakes and ocean and other drifting garbage you'd need to know whats changing in the water and ways to combat other problems that may promote disease in fish and spread throughout the ecosystem.


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I totally understand where you're trying to go with this topic. But we are not talking about the horrible things that are wrong with the oceans and lakes of the world. Just saying your straying. It is just "bacteria in a bottle". If you think it works go for it. Just don't be irresponsible and/or ignorant when it comes to cycling your tank. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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[treemanone2003]

With all the pollutants being dumped in lakes and ocean and other drifting garbage you'd need to know whats changing in the water and ways to combat other problems that may promote disease in fish and spread throughout the ecosystem.


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It's pretty clear what's changing in the water and how to combat it. It takes nothing more than looking in the mirror and saying "I did this".


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[FishyMamma]

Following..... Interesting how passionate people get about this topic. What I often sense, and it's rarely said aloud, is that using bottled bacteria is a form of "cheating" and therefore less-than. Purists can get very defensive/offensive about even making an attempt at using them.


Keeping my sleeves wet...
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[Mebbid]

Following..... Interesting how passionate people get about this topic. What I often sense, and it's rarely said aloud, is that using bottled bacteria is a form of "cheating" and therefore less-than. Purists can get very defensive/offensive about even making an attempt at using them.


Keeping my sleeves wet...
Sent via Carrier Goldfish

I've never head of that "purist" approach before. I see it more along the lines of people seeing that the products don't perform as advertised, if at all and have grown to dislike the products on that basis.

Let's take microbe lift's lofty claims for example:
Dramatically reduces need for water changes
Reduces the frequency of cleaning
Good for salt and freshwater fish
Chemical free!
A new tank starter for biological cycling and boosting
An organic waste degrader
Naturally stimulates plant growth
Lowers ammonia levels and biologically reduces nitrates
Removes odors and clears cloudy water
Biological maintainer for established tanks
Enhances ability of plants to utilize light, water and nutrients
Breaks down residue on gravel, plants ,rocks, etc.
Breaks down protein foam

This should be a miracle in a bottle. The fun thing there is absolutely no scientific backing for these claims and nowadays that's essential to be taken seriously in the aquarium trade.

People have been doing that for centuries

 

[Mebbid]

Heck, I could bottle up vodka, call it a proprietary blend of ingredients, and market it to the salt water crowd to preform the same functions as microbe lift claims. Vodka is proven to work with scientific backing as well.

 

[Jferrante]

Heck, I could bottle up vodka, call it a proprietary blend of ingredients, and market it to the salt water crowd to preform the same functions as microbe lift claims. Vodka is proven to work with scientific backing as well.

I doesn't mater if its simple, you could do just that. It would make people feel confident about using it even. Just because its "says for saltwater tanks" on it. Its kind of like driftwood, you could find some out in a lake or pond in your back yard or but it. Could be fine could rot too, just depends on if you want to "play it safe." If you do it with your own way it maybe cheaper or free but you can't complain... You can't sue either lol its like a safeguard on your investment sometimes.

It's pretty clear what's changing in the water and how to combat it. It takes nothing more than looking in the mirror and saying "I did this".


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The cause may be, but the chemistry of the water can get complicated even after its cleaned up. How would they ever know what is "normal" if they have no idea what makes up the water. Its a study of ecology.
Its not off topic. Good water in a fish tank means it has a good ecological balance of microscopic organisms. The best could represent a clean crystal clear untouched spring river in the amazon. But of course its still subjective to the fish you have.



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[Quest84]

As far as shelf life I believe it's strongest when first made and then gradually becomes less active but doesn't necessarily die. Bacteria are very tough organisms and live for 100 or more years without ideal conditions.

take a seeded filter and give it no ammonia source and see how long the bacteria lasts, it doesn't. The bacteria need a food source and to be stored at the correct temp. to even stand a chance at surviving in a bottle. I still call BS until someone proves otherwise

 

[Quest84]

I've never head of that "purist" approach before. I see it more along the lines of people seeing that the products don't perform as advertised, if at all and have grown to dislike the products on that basis.

Let's take microbe lift's lofty claims for example:
Dramatically reduces need for water changes
Reduces the frequency of cleaning
Good for salt and freshwater fish
Chemical free!
A new tank starter for biological cycling and boosting
An organic waste degrader
Naturally stimulates plant growth
Lowers ammonia levels and biologically reduces nitrates
Removes odors and clears cloudy water
Biological maintainer for established tanks
Enhances ability of plants to utilize light, water and nutrients
Breaks down residue on gravel, plants ,rocks, etc.
Breaks down protein foam

This should be a miracle in a bottle. The fun thing there is absolutely no scientific backing for these claims and nowadays that's essential to be taken seriously in the aquarium trade.

People have been doing that for centuries

agreed with much of what you have said in this thread. If these products actually worked people would actually recommend them to others, instead you find mostly that they did nothing but take your hard earned money. What do experienced fish keepers gain by not recommending these products to others? NOTHING...what do these companies gain that sell this bottled bacteria? Everything $$$$$$$$$$$

the claims above are a recipe for disaster in this hobby, there is no substitute for cycling a tank, proper tank maintenance and waters changes. These companies are all out to make money, remember this!

 

[Jferrante]

The bacteria in a bottle is concentrated... its pure slimy matrix and a water mixture with nutrients to sustain a temporary low activity state. It doesn't need oxygen its anaerobic not aerobic. It could have an actual food source in the bottle but thats something i'd like to find out. Perhaps it has ammonium which doesn't harm fish. Also nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria are much slower at reproducing than heterotrophic bacteria so food source would be negligible in comparison. If you took out filter media and let it sit it would be exposed to air which would kill it because thats not its environment. If you left it in the sealed container you'd have a lot more time. But if it was concentrated with added ammonium it'd have even more time.
It doesn't have to be 100% alive because they'd still reproduce at 50% it'd just be less concentrated so its effectiveness and survival in new tank water would vary more. However tanks up and running it would much more likely to survive and literally give you a boost as described.



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[enrgizerbunny]

The bacteria in a bottle is concentrated... its pure slimy matrix and a water mixture with nutrients to sustain a temporary low activity state. It doesn't need oxygen its anaerobic not aerobic. It could have an actual food source in the bottle but thats something i'd like to find out. Perhaps it has ammonium which doesn't harm fish. Also nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria are much slower at reproducing than heterotrophic bacteria so food source would be negligible in comparison. If you took out filter media and let it sit it would be exposed to air which would kill it because thats not its environment. If you left it in the sealed container you'd have a lot more time. But if it was concentrated with added ammonium it'd have even more time.
It doesn't have to be 100% alive because they'd still reproduce at 50% it'd just be less concentrated so its effectiveness and survival in new tank water would vary more. However tanks up and running it would much more likely to survive and literally give you a boost as described.



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Nitrifying bacteria is quite aerobic friend. Anaerobic bacteria actually DIE when they are exposed to oxygen. The bacteria that feed on ammonia and nitrite exist naturally, we just create an environment in our filters where they thrive in order to protect our fish.

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[Mebbid]

Nitrifying bacteria is quite aerobic friend. Anaerobic bacteria actually DIE when they are exposed to oxygen. The bacteria that feed on ammonia and nitrite exist naturally, we just create an environment in our filters where they thrive in order to protect our fish.

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Its not quite soo cut and dry. The bacteria you are referring to are obligate aerobes. They require high concentrations of oxygen or die.

Nitrifying bacteria work through an entirely different mechanism and are obligate lithoautotrophs. They require the oxygen to perform the breakdown of ammonia (NH3) into nitrite (NO2) and then further into nitrate (NO3) without the oxygen they cannot perform this function. However, when conditions aren't optimal, they can go dormant for a short period of time. Usually described as long as a month before dying.

 

[Jferrante]

Nitrifying bacteria is quite aerobic friend. Anaerobic bacteria actually DIE when they are exposed to oxygen. The bacteria that feed on ammonia and nitrite exist naturally, we just create an environment in our filters where they thrive in order to protect our fish.

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The nitrifying bacteria is aerobic its what converts the ammonia but denitrifying bacteria is anaerobic and it converts nitrite into nitrate. So there is both and the feed each other as long as there is ammonium to start the chain. There is a third bacteria that consumes nitrates but it usually takes a much longer time to establish and most filter media actually won't even support it.
There is this filter media i saw in a video that was like pumice that was put in a kiln. I'll see if i can find that video but good media is one of the most valuable pieces.


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[Fresh2o]

Nitrifying bacteria are aerobic. That is why they flourish in filters where oxygen is plentiful. Nitrifying bacteria in media removed from the water (exposed to air) should be fine as long as they don't dry out. Wet/dry and trickle filters are environments readily exposed to air yet they are highly effective with nitrification.
There are bacteria that can switch from aerobic to anaerobic respiration depending on the presence of oxygen. Not sure if these are the ones present in the bottles.


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[Mebbid]

The nitrifying bacteria is aerobic its what converts the ammonia but denitrifying bacteria is anaerobic and it converts nitrite into nitrate. So there is both and the feed each other as long as there is ammonium to start the chain. There is a third bacteria that consumes nitrates but it usually takes a much longer time to establish and most filter media actually won't even support it.
There is this filter media i saw in a video that was like pumice that was put in a kiln. I'll see if i can find that video but good media is one of the most valuable pieces.


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I think you're off base a bit. The bacteria that consumes nitrite does so aerobically. This is easy to see by the added oxygen molecule attached to nitrate.

The bacteria that consume nitrate are the denitrifiers. They perform this process entirely though an anaerobic process. They will consume nitrate, utilize the oxygen, and release nitrogen gas.

 

[Caliban07]

They don't work bud. Every now and then you get a newbie cycling a tank and because nitrites are'stalled' they go out and by stability or something. They add it on the day right before things were going to move antsy and then come here and say things like 'i don't care what anyone says but I stand by stability, it worked for me' etc etc.

The other cases I've come across are things like wow instant cycle with stability and I say wow! What did you do and they say' well I set my tank up filled it and added stability. My sister gave me some plants and ornaments from her 55 and bam took me 3 days.

Doh!


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