C02 headache

[fastfly48]

Hi All...

Tested my Kh and Ph the other day...
Ph: 6.4
Kh: 30 ppm (1.7 degrees)

That gives a C02 reading of about 20ppm.
Call me greedy but I want more
I'm aiming for about 30-35ppm

Here's the problem...
Ok, so I had a C02 reading of 20ppm.
So I increased my bubble rate a bit...very hard to do manualy with that tiny knob thingo...
Anyhoo, so I increased it to just over a bubler a minute.
Tested the water today and YIKES!
Ph fell down just below 6 and the Kh is still the same...
giving a C02 reading of about 51ppm!
I wanted a higher C02 level but not that high!
The fish are all fine though :s
Could this hurt the plants really bad? I think it could...

Um ok. So I want a C02 reading between 25 and 35. But I'm finding it really hard with a Kh of only 30ppm. When I increase the C02 the Ph falls too low...:s
...and I don't really want to have to keep dosing baking soda.
Guess you can't have it all right?
How much better is 35ppm of C02 to 20ppm? Worth the trouble?
Just interested in your thoughts.
thanks in advance.

Ry.

 

[BrianNY]

Plain and simple Ry. You don't have enough buffering capacity to safely inject CO2 without a a huge pH crash. That can be deadly to your fish. A handful of crushed coral in your filter will gradually raise the KH and pH to get you where you need to be.

I also believe the CO2 calc is more of a guide and probably overstates the amount of CO2 that's actually in your tank.

 

[malkore]

As brian says, you don't have enough Kh in your water to safely inject CO2. 3dKh is considered the minimum. Lots of people will bump to 4-5dKh just for a wider safety net.

The pH/Kh chart is accurate +/- 10%. So one might read 25ppm, but really its 22ppm-27ppm...close enough though.

Dosing baking soda (which can be done precisely) or adding crushed coral (which randomly increases Kh) is the only way you'll have enough buffering to make pH/CO2 adjustment less of a headache.

 

[fastfly48]

aw.

Guess I'm not very safe then hu?
My ph has always been at a solid 6.4...just, When I increase the rate a bit it droped a bit.
I'ver never had fish deaths due to ph crash/s...
Hmmm.....
What could trigger a ph crash? Just adding more C02?
I figure that If I just leave it like it always has been things will be ok?
Many thanks.
Ry.

 

[BrianNY]

The more CO2 you add, the greater the pH drop. I think you're tempting fate by not buffering the water. It's just so easy to do.

 

[7Enigma]

fastfly48,

The other thing to note here is the effect on your bacteria. I would check your ammonia and nitrIte readings as soon as you get the chance (thought it might have gone away already). Once you get below pH6.4, you begin to affect the metabolism of the nitrifying bacteria. Below 6.0 (yikes!) and you can virtually stop metabolism completely (not to mention shock the fish to death as well).

I dose a lot of ferts and additives since my water is similar to yours, but comon man baking soda is the easiest of them all!! 1/2 teaspoon in 5gallons (I have a 20 gallon so its a 25% PWC), raises my KH of that 5 gallons about 5 degrees. This puts my tank water between 5-7 degrees which is perfect for injecting CO2 (especially in my DIY setup where it might fluctuate).

I would lower your CO2 back to the original rate (where the pH never went below 6.4), and slowly add baking soda (no more than 1 degree a day, and to be safe I'd not go over 0.5 degrees a day) until you get up to 4-7 degrees KH (dissolve the baking soda in a cup of tank water first to prevent the fish from eating/stressing). Since you are using pressurized you can put a LOT of CO2 into the water and be safe and consistent if you have a higher KH. Personally if I had your setup, I'd buffer my tap to 7 degrees KH and keep the CO2 at 40-50ppm. This would ensure the best possible growth and minimum algae problems as long as your other ferts are well dosed.

 

[fastfly48]

Thanks 7Enigma

Very helpfull words.
I love when people have similar water and tank to me.
Yep, I lowered the bubble rate last night back to the old rate (or as close as I could mange manually and all).
I'm going to check all my parametres again after this post

How much backing soda would you need to raise the Kh 0.5 degrees? I have no idea.
Doing this daily, when I finally get the Kh up to say 6...could I then just add half a tea spoon of Backing soad every week with my water change? (of 25%)? Yeah, I guess it all depends on everything though, so you can't really answer that right?
Oh and also, how fast does the Kh wear out (if I may)? Hmm....

I'm just looking for a way to keep my Kh high and constant, with *relative* ease...

Oh. here's a shocker for you.
I only dose trace ferts....or are they?...um..it says..."Chelated Ferrite Liquid". Made of "organic ion complex". I've just been adding the right amount for each water change...
I really should pick up my game I know. But the idea of dosing all these different ferts, at different rates, different prices (ouch) at different times etc. Is a bit nerving. Just not sure I have the time.
I know I must sound so slack, and you guys must just be shaking your heads hey....

So glad you can help me out.
Many thanks.
Rylnad.

 

[7Enigma]

How much backing soda would you need to raise the Kh 0.5 degrees? I have no idea.

Well lets see. I couldn't find your tank size so lets pretend its 20gallons (if its 29 gallons just add 33% to all of my numbers). If you add 1/2 teaspoon to 5 gallons you raise the KH by about 5 degrees. So if you then add that 5 gallons into your 20 gallon tank you have increased the KH by about 1.25 degrees. Too high too fast IMO.

So if you instead add 1/4teaspoon to that 5 gallons and then add to the 20gallon tank you now have only raised the KH by 0.625 degrees. Almost there.

But now remember that depending on substrate level, water level, plants and decorations you most definately do not have 20 gallons of water in the 20gallon tank and you need less. So using a 1/4 teaspoon I would level out the 1/4 teaspoon and then scrape a little extra out so its not quite full. That or use a 1/8th teaspoon (do they make these? ) and put in a level 1/8th and then a little bit more.

It's not an exact science and doesn't need to be, you just need to make sure you don't over do it too quickly. The first addition I'd do with a 25% PWC since this will be the largest shock to the fish. It will allow the water to mix more slowly (rather than just adding a cup of "concentrated" KH), and you get a PWC out of the way at the same time.

Reply back with your exact tank size and I'll be able to be more specific for your tank size.

Doing this daily, when I finally get the Kh up to say 6...could I then just add half a tea spoon of Backing soad every week with my water change? (of 25%)? Yeah, I guess it all depends on everything though, so you can't really answer that right?
Oh and also, how fast does the Kh wear out (if I may)? Hmm....

That's exactly what I do. While KH will "wear out" over time if you keep up the 25% (some do 50%) PWC weekly then you will never have the need to do anything other than 1/2 teaspoon a week. It's so simple and easy, it dissolves readily in the water, and you can be sure within 1 degree of how much KH your adding (unlike crushed coral where you don't have direct control of the level).

I'm just looking for a way to keep my Kh high and constant, with *relative* ease...

Aren't we all.

Oh. here's a shocker for you.
I only dose trace ferts....or are they?...um..it says..."Chelated Ferrite Liquid". Made of "organic ion complex". I've just been adding the right amount for each water change...
I really should pick up my game I know. But the idea of dosing all these different ferts, at different rates, different prices (ouch) at different times etc. Is a bit nerving. Just not sure I have the time.
I know I must sound so slack, and you guys must just be shaking your heads hey....

Well you need to look on the back of the bottle. If the only ingredient is chelated ferrite (this is iron or Fe) then you definately need to make some changes. Iron is a micronutrient that is normally found in sufficient quantities in tap water, as well as from fish waste (since much of the food has iron in it). You still will probably want to dose it if you see deficiency symptoms (check out my other thread for most likely iron deficiency ), but it is probably being overdosed in your tank since you are not dosing macronutrients (used in large quantities by the plants). Too much iron in the water is just asking for a crazy algae outbreak.

How much $$$ can you afford to spend? I just spent about $27 for all the ferts I'll ever need from www.gregwatson.com I was able to get all the macronutrients I will ever need as well as a trace mix (this contains many different nutrients as well as iron). If you feel comfortable going down this road I'll post exactly what I got to give you a good idea about what you should buy.

Phew..My hands are tired.

 

[fastfly48]

7Enigma your a champ.
Thanks so much for all this.
ok...

Haha! They DO make 1/8th teaspoons! Score.
Oh, yes. Sorry. My tank is 20 gallons. But it has alot of substrate esp. up the back with many rocks and stuff. SO I really don't have much of an idea of how many gallons are actually in my tank :s I'd *guess* about 17 gallons? I'm from Australia (g'day) so I don't really have a good grip on judging how many gallons things hold.
Then again 3 gallons is alot...oh heck. I don't know
I'm pretty sure I have my tank stats and stuff in my profile thingo...Maybe even a photo...


Ok, I figure. that 5 gallons is about 20 litres. That's four buckets of water change.
Could I add the 1/8th (about) baking soda to just one of those buckets or should I split it up amongst them all? I guess it'd be safer to split it up hey?
I think I'll do this once a week for a while and keep checking the Kh? Sound good?

"If the only ingredient is chelated ferrite (this is iron or Fe) then you definately need to make some changes"
Yep. I need to make some changes then. The plants all look great though (If i may ), the only only thing I can pick out is a bit of hair algae and "black beard" algae. Just a smidge, everything else looks healthy though. Looking forward to getting some more C02 in there

How much can I afford? Well...tricky question.
The prices all you guys talk of are atleast doulbed here. The cheapest riccia was $10...and it was half the size of your palm! youch. Basic water test kit was $80. That's just as cheap as they come here I'm afraid. Everything is overpriced.
I'm not poor or anything, but who likes digging into there savings? A firgure? Say...less than $100. But, with that you also have to talk about the new added running costs...

I'm looking for a good all-round fert. With everything. I hear that you have two options...
*option 1. Buy an all in one fert, with the obvious problems not being able to monitor and add nutrients at the desired rates when needed...
*option 2. Buy all the seperate ferts ($$$) for a more comprehensive approuch...

I've never ordered thing over the net. Don't think I want to start.
Though I'd love to know what you bought to give me an idea of what i'm going to be needing. Feel comfortable? I'm prepeared to work and spend to get this tank how I want...just not exessive working and spending...you know? The main thing is to keep running cost down.

Once again. Thanks a heap.
Cheers.
Keep it coming
Ry.

 

[7Enigma]

OK, didn't see you were not in the US (stupid Americans). Then you need the more natural approach (this will save money too). Here's what I'd do:

-baking soda as you know increases KH (sodium bicarbonate)

-epsom salt will increase magnesium (magnesium sulfate)

-tree stump remover will increase both potassium and nitrAte (good luck finding this one....and make sure it dissolves cleanly since some are higher quality than others)

-certain enemas contain phosphate (I feel for you if you have to buy one of these at a drug store )

So there ya go, all of the macro nutrients you need separately (except for the stump remover), and they should be cheaply available. And you don't need to order over the net.

 

[fastfly48]

woh!?
Are you serious or was that a joke?
A more "natural approuch"? Meaning?
Um...I'm not sure how you see Australia...
Tree stump remover?
Enemas!?
Your either really funny or really silly
Not too sure which yet

um....any chance of some real advice?

Slightly confused, and slightly intrigued...
Ry...

ps. Quite impressed with that knowledge though...if it's true.

 

[BrianNY]

LOL. He isn't trying to be funny. Those nutrients can be found in those products Ry

 

[7Enigma]

Yeah, everything I wrote was legit. I was fortunate enough however not to have to go to the drug store or landscaping store and ask for those odd products.

 

[fastfly48]

um...ok then.
I'm kindof dumbstruck...

Yes I'm sure that those nutrients can be found in those products.
But...
Drug store and landscaping store?
I have 5 perfectly great aquarium stores close by. Complete with many many many products...and no kangaroos.
I don't understand this radically different approuch.

I was kindof hoping to use proper aquarium ferts...
Hoping you could give me some names...
It seems everything just came to a crashing halt as soon as I mentioned Australia.

"Ok, I figure. that 5 gallons is about 20 litres. That's four buckets of water change.
Could I add the 1/8th (about) baking soda to just one of those buckets or should I split it up amongst them all? I guess it'd be safer to split it up hey?
I think I'll do this once a week for a while and keep checking the Kh? Sound good?"
repeat: sound good?

Ry.

 

[rich311k]

If you pour all 4 buckets in a row just put it in one or two. I add all my additives ferts and baking soda to the last bucket I pour in the tank. My fish don't seem too mind at all the whole operation takes less than a 1/2 hour per tank. After you add the 1/8 tps do a KH test. You may want to add a little more the next day until you reach the level you want. Once you reach the level you want you will know how much to add each water change.

Does your LFS sell the Flourish line of plant supplements? or do they have a different line. You can always post the specifics here and we will be happy to help you with them.

 

[fastfly48]

Thanks rich

Yes, I'm pretty sure I've seen Flourish around. Many different "lines".
Thanks. I haven't looked toom uch at all the ferts in the stores...guess I'd better start!
Are there specifc ones I should keep and eye out for that are more important?
Like magnesium or calcium?

Cheers.
Ry.

oh...all four in a row?
I only have one bucket. It's my water bucket. Just for my water changes. To make sure that no other chemical get thrown in it...
it'd be a few minutes between each bucket could be cyphened in...

Ry.

ps. It's ANZAC day.

 

[7Enigma]

Well I still think the dry fert method is better (due to $$$ reasons as well as knowing exactly what your adding), but yes you can use the flourish products. I've not used the specific ones but you would want something for:

-nitrAte
-phosphate
-potassium
-and possibly magnesium and calcium
-(you already have the iron)

Those products I mentioned above are just chemicals with common names added to them, not a "radically different approach". Stump remover is potassium nitrAte or KNO3. It's a chemical, but no one would know what KNO3 did (I didn't), so they use the term stump remover, and anyone looking to get rid of a tree stump doesn't care what it is but uses it anyway. Just like lye I believe is sodium hydroxide (NaOH), a very caustic base that can do many different things (one of them being raise the pH of a solution).

It's like saying why would I use Clorox (bleach over here) when what I really want is chlorine. It's the same thing, just with a common name attached to it.

 

[BrianNY]

I don't think it has anything to do with being in the states or Australia. I've yet to find a single lfs here that has even a basic understanding of what it takes to raise aquatic plants.

As far as ferts go, nitrates are the ones that I seem to need to dose the most. The reason most of us dose dry ferts as compared to Flourish is the expense. A little bit of KNO3 (which is found in stump remover), goes a long long way.

Personally, if I were you Ry, I would email Greg Watson and see if he'll ship to Australia. It's just so much more economical than using Flourish. JMO

 

[fastfly48]

ok thanks.
Oh btw, my tank stats are on my tag thingo. I guess you have them hidden?
Still wondering what you think of my Kh method...

thanks.
ry.

 

[7Enigma]

BrianNY,

I think he should try to find a local chemical supply shop rather than try to go international. KNO3 is a commonly used fuel in explosives and I could just see the headaches involved in trying to ship out of the US!

KH method is fine. Doesn't really matter where/when you add the baking soda. Your not increasing the level drastically, but if you really want the best way I'd add the baking soda during the last water addition (this will make the KH change the least). During subsequent changes however, I'd probably put the baking soda in somewhere in the middle (maybe the 3rd or 4th bucket).

Frankly I'd just buy a 5gallon bucket, it would make life MUCH easier. My tank is on the same floor as my tub, and I just fill up the bucket in the tub and then add in using a large cup until I can (without spilling ) lift the bucket up and slowly pour it into the tank.