galen said:
lol. well, i can see now why this forum get's a bad name.
I do not believe a forum gets a bad name by questioning things like this topic. Rather, they become wiser and more knowledgeable.
Rather simplistic observations (that any newbie may do) can rationalize such pH shifts are not stressful in the short or long term to fish.
It does not take anything more than common sense to realize that.
Try it an see.
plus, since i quoted an article made by someone with a phd in organic chemistry and who is the ceo/president of seachem laboratories, i think they know what they are talking about as they can reproduce exp[eriments and such under controlled conditions.
So where is the "research" that supports your point?
I see none here, some personal feather ruffling is about it.
I offered a simple method to show that it has no impact.
Anyone of us using CO2 can do this. Most have been doing it when they use CO2 and do large frequent water changes. I provided a simple hypothesis that would test for the issue.
Misapplying research and the context when addressing CO2 enriched systems with plants is not the same as fish only systems where pH changes are due to removal of KH and or addition of KH.
Are these the same?
That's what you are suggesting and I will question you about it.
If you cannot stick to the topic without personal jibs, then that reflects right back on you.
A PhD in O chem vs a PhD in aquatic weed research trumps, but it's not about that, it's about the topic at hand. Greg knows his area well, I know mine.
I'm not about that, I'm much more about asking the question based on what you see, observing the results and seeing what conclusions you can draw. Hobbyists can learn a great deal by asking questions and testing for some simple methods to show whether these questions are valid or not.
You do not always require a lab for everything.
That is far better than merely taking someone's word for something.
It also is very helpful to see if such advice applies to the particular case at hand. Generally, labs do not ask the same questions we do here in the hobby. So applying the research is not always easy and seldom good in every case.
unless your in laboratory, then you cannot make claims that facts are incorrect based upon observations made at home or at work upon systems.
I do work in a laboratory at the Federal aquatic weed research center in CA, USA.
Even if I did not work in a lab, Paul Sears has a PhD in Organic chemistry, at the time I had no degree 12 years ago, I proved him incorrect, just little old me, showing at home, that adding PO4 to excess levels does not induce algae as he, as well as most others at the time, claimed.
It did not prove what causes algae, it just proved very simply that it could be causing algae. No lab required. Today folks add PO4 to their tanks as a matter of routine, even Amano.
Just because you have a PhD or a lab does not mean you are right.
See PMDD for more of the past issues about PO4.
therefore, to do so is mistaken and misleading.
That makes a lot of assumptions without any support.
I have made a hypothesis, tested it, shown results(as many have that do large weekly water changes using CO2), and then discussed it.
Any newbie can do this and see.
Simple, cheap, easy, logical and specific to our case and our question.
besides, if you want to see proof, contact seachem and im sure they will send it to you- i will not quote sources from the internet cause i belive that unless that said information is dfone in alab, then it is mistaken.
Such test need to be specific to answer the question at hand: does pH change due to CO2 difference cause fish stress? KH?
That simply was not done and your reference did not support that.
I've addressed that specifically in context of several species of fish, many that are claimed to be sensitive such as shrimp and Altum angels. These are fine week after week after week of 1 full pH unit drops/increases.
Discus breed. Fish grow and live long. So behavior and sublethal effects are not observable near as anyone can tell.
You do not require a lab to see this.
Any newbie can see and do this test, many do weekly as a matter of routine.
science always beats experience. this is sad- whats worse is *beep* online who think they know stuff based upon keeping aquariums for a period of time- you dont so dont question the phds!
Science + experience+ testing beats
misapplied references for a given situation.
So I cannot not question myself is what you are saying?
<grin>
As a researcher, we question each other all the time. Every person I work with at the lab besides a few under grad p/t interns has one.
<Indulge my "Sarcasm on">
Yes, I'm sometimes am scared to go to work for fear of questioning someone that has a PhD. We get paid to ask questions and see if they are right as best that our feeble minds can rationalize.
You are too funny.
Simply because you have a degree, does not make you an expert in every field. You might find that disconcerting but anyone with such degrees is very well aware of it, except within the field of specialization on what they worked on.
You need to focus specifically on the application in this case. Not some reference that does not apply. I know you felt that it did, but I offered up a lot of simple test to see if this holds true in our specific case.
These test are easy to see that there is more to it that the link provided.
It's like saying adding nitrogen is bad for fish.
What type of Nitrogen(N2, NO3, NH4, NO2, DON) and under what type of conditions(pH, CO2, O2, plants/algae, fish etc)?
Those are extremely relevant questions.
Same deal here.
The devil is in the details.
This is not personal to me, it's obvious that it is for you, it might be wiser to get the ego out of thread and try and learn why specifically this is not the case here rather than poor attempts to poo poo me at a personal level. That only reflects back on you.
Test it yourself and see, then you'll know, no PhD required.
Regards,
Tom Barr