Cycling question

[nlifs]

Hello again!

After having cycled the tank, I went to the LFS and purchased the following a few days ago:

- 8 cardinal tetras
- 4 live plants

Unfortunately, the fish don't seem to be doing too great ... one died within 24 hours, another two within 48 hours and one more this morning. Currently 4/8 remain.

I re-tested the water and the parameters seem fine (Ammonia = 0; Nitrites = 0; Nitrates seem to be about 5-10). My pH is around 7.5. I checked with the store and their pH is similar (we both use regular tap water with no chemicals/buffers). They also quarantine all of their fish for 2 weeks before putting them up for sale and they double-checked their tank and the fish appear healthy.

Not sure why so many finish died so quickly ... I spent a decent amount of time (perhaps 30 minutes) acclimating them, first by floating and then adding some tank water to the bag before netting them into the tank.

Questions:

A) Any idea why the fish aren't doing well? The LFS guy suggested that I was doing everything right but that these fish often do better in an 'established' tank that has been running for months ...

B) There are only 4 left, which is a very small school ... should I go back and get some more to try and build a proper school of these fish?

I had some plant-related questions as well, but I think I'll post that on the 'planted tank' board.

Thanks as usual!

 

[Andy Sager]

There are tank raised Cardinals and wild caught Cardinals. If you got wild caught ones, the 7.5 Ph is on the high side for them eve tho they are in that at the store. ( You'd have to ask the store which they have.) It does sound like you did everything right which will make figuring this out a bit more difficult. For starters, I would not add more Cardinals for the time being. While they do better in schools for protection, they have nothing to fear in your tank currently since they are alone so I wouldn't add more until we figure this out.

I'd take a sample of your water to the store and have them check the hardness (GH) and alkalinity ( KH) in comparison to their water. Wild Cards come from soft water. Based on your previous water " report card", you have hard water. That could be why the fish are not adjusting.

Where is the tank located in relationship to the kitchen or bathroom or where any aerosols might be sprayed?

Was there any issues in the person catching the fish initially? Maybe chasing them aggressively?

 

[nlifs]

There are tank raised Cardinals and wild caught Cardinals. If you got wild caught ones, the 7.5 Ph is on the high side for them eve tho they are in that at the store. ( You'd have to ask the store which they have.) It does sound like you did everything right which will make figuring this out a bit more difficult. For starters, I would not add more Cardinals for the time being. While they do better in schools for protection, they have nothing to fear in your tank currently since they are alone so I wouldn't add more until we figure this out.

I'd take a sample of your water to the store and have them check the hardness (GH) and alkalinity ( KH) in comparison to their water. Wild Cards come from soft water. Based on your previous water " report card", you have hard water. That could be why the fish are not adjusting.

Where is the tank located in relationship to the kitchen or bathroom or where any aerosols might be sprayed?

Was there any issues in the person catching the fish initially? Maybe chasing them aggressively?

Hi Andy!

I think they were wild caught but I will confirm. I know that I asked about their pygmy corys and those were definitely wild.

I can take a water sample to the store but we are using essentially the same tap water, so my guess is that those results should more or less match.

The tank is in the corner of the den, far from the kitchen/bathroom, so I don't think they'd be exposed to any aerosol.

Are cards simply too sensitive to use as first fish in a newly cycled tank?

The LFS manager suggested that I get another fish or two while waiting for the tank to become "established". What do you think of adding a couple of honey gouramis? I don't want to go too long without getting some sort of bio-load in the tank, both to keep my population of bacteria intact but also to help provide some nutrients to the plants... Also, as far as the current group size is concerned, I still think they might benefit from more cards because they get very skittish whenever anyone comes near the tank to look at them. I think having more of their kind would make them less nervous...

As far as your last questions, should I ask the LFS guy how they were caught in the wild? I don't think he would know that ...

One last point to consider... The outflow of my filter is quite strong and was pushing the fish around when they swam underneath it. I've since baffled it and that has helped significantly. Do you think a powerful flow may have contributed to their stress/death?

Thanks again!

 

[Andy Sager]

Hi Andy!

I think they were wild caught but I will confirm. I know that I asked about their pygmy corys and those were definitely wild.

I can take a water sample to the store but we are using essentially the same tap water, so my guess is that those results should more or less match. The reason to get it rechecked is that just because you are both using tap water from the same source, the water can get altered by things in an aquarium which would not make the water identical anymore.

The tank is in the corner of the den, far from the kitchen/bathroom, so I don't think they'd be exposed to any aerosol. Okay, so that rules that out

Are cards simply too sensitive to use as first fish in a newly cycled tank? They would not be my first choice for a first fish but if they were healthy and in the store for a couple of weeks under quarantine, that shouldn't have been a problem. The key is what other fish you planned on putting in the tank whether the Cardinals should have been first in or in the tank at all.

The LFS manager suggested that I get another fish or two while waiting for the tank to become "established". What do you think of adding a couple of honey gouramis? I would stay away from Gouramis in general with the Cardinals. There is also a virus in many lines of the dwarf gourami ( i.e. Dwarf, powder blue, flame, sunset, honey, etc) that is incurable should the fish activate the virus when under stress. I don't want to go too long without getting some sort of bio-load in the tank, both to keep my population of bacteria intact but also to help provide some nutrients to the plants... Also, as far as the current group size is concerned, I still think they might benefit from more cards because they get very skittish whenever anyone comes near the tank to look at them. This is because they are new and no matter how many you have, they will be skittish until they get used to their new surroundings and the people taking care of them. I think having more of their kind would make them less nervous...

As far as your last questions, should I ask the LFS guy how they were caught in the wild? I don't think he would know that ... Actually, wild caught cardinals are highly regulated for not over fishing and collection of them is quite simple. What I was referring to was if the store clerk had to chase the fish around a lot before he/she was able to net them.

One last point to consider... The outflow of my filter is quite strong and was pushing the fish around when they swam underneath it. I've since baffled it and that has helped significantly. Do you think a powerful flow may have contributed to their stress/death? THAT could be the problem. Cardinals come from slow moving small streams so water flow is minimal. ( Here is a video of them in the wild:

) You will notice the algaes and plants in the video barely move until the camera moves causing a current. Yours may have died from injury more than than the water. If the other 4 do not die in the next couple of days since you baffled the outflow, I think we found your issue. Any future fish you get should also prefer slow moving waters.

Thanks again!

 

[nlifs]

What do you think of this (picture)?

Found the idea online for baffling this HOB filter using a plastic water bottle. May not be the most elegant solution but definitely helps divert the flow ...

The remaining fish seem to be more comfortable swimming throughout the tank now. Hopefully they will be less stressed and will survive!

At this point, I think I'll try to expand the school to try and keep them happier/less aggressive.

Would you be concerned about the gouramis even if they're quarantined for two weeks? They happen to do well in slow moving water, from what I can tell ...

My original stocking plan was:

school (10-12) of cardinal tetras
school (8) of pygmy corys
1-2 honey gouramis

Unfortunately, the LFS told me to hold off on the corys as they are wild caught and they were concerned that they wouldn't do well in a newly cycled tank (as opposed to a more established one).

I think all of these would do well in slow-moving water ... do you agree?

If you still think that the gouramis would not be ideal, any other recommendations for a couple of slightly larger (but still peaceful) community ?

Thanks again!

 

[nlifs]

The LFS manager suggested that I get another fish or two while waiting for the tank to become "established". What do you think of adding a couple of honey gouramis? I would stay away from Gouramis in general with the Cardinals. There is also a virus in many lines of the dwarf gourami ( i.e. Dwarf, powder blue, flame, sunset, honey, etc) that is incurable should the fish activate the virus when under stress.

Re. the honey gourami, I found the following on the "Aquarium Science" website:

"The honey gourami (Trichogaster chuna) is a good substitute as they are only about two inches long (dwarf gourami get to 3 1/2 inch). The honey gourami is just a golden yellow to orange without the blue or red coloration of the dwarf but it doesn’t appear to get dwarf gourami disease. The honey gourami is also more mellow than the dwarf gourami."

https://aquariumscience.org/index.p...gourami is just,mellow than the dwarf gourami.

Do you still think that these would be a concern?

 

[Andy Sager]

Years ago, when they first started making colors of the Dwarf Gourami, it was found that 22%- 25% of the fish in Singapore and Hong Kong all carried the virus and was suspected they picked it up as fry. ( Considering it's from inbreeding and that has been going on a lot since then, I have to assume the percentage is higher now. ) It's been developed by all the inbreeding of the species to get the different colors. It's not found in wild fish. There is debate whether the virus infects other gourami species but considering that the honey gourami has gone through the same inbreeding for the different colors, it wouldn't surprise me that they carry now or are susceptible to the virus as well. It's not easy to find wild caught honeys or dwarfs but those are the only ones I would keep these days.

The baffling looks fine but the real test is if the fish like it. If they stop dying and swim more easily, I'd say they like it.

I agree with the cories not being good for now but they do not do well in hard water so I would choose another bottom fish. While I don't recommend mixing tank bred with wild caught fish, in this case, I would look into a tank bred corydora catfish that is already accustomed to your hard water and temperature.

As for what else besides the gouramis, please remind me of the size of your tank.

Lastly, regarding Science direct.org, I suggest you read this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Aquariums/comments/rmyfag/beware_of_misinformation_from_this_site_i_would/
( My vast experience does not fully concur with all their findings and a lack actual proof of research has me very suspect of the site. )

 

[nlifs]

Thanks yet again!

Will see if the LFS has any wild caught gouramis...

My tank is 20G (16 or 17" high).

Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

What do you think about habrosus corys instead of pygmys (assuming I can find tank-bread)?

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks yet again!

Will see if the LFS has any wild caught gouramis...

My tank is 20G (16 or 17" high).

Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

What do you think about habrosus corys instead of pygmys (assuming I can find tank-bread)?

It's hard to find wild " common" gouramis but many of the chocolate gouramis are wild caught.

Yes, habrosus are another of the dwarf cories. Another common smaller cory being bred is the Paleatus ( Salt & Pepper) cories. Both will work in a 20 high.

 

[nlifs]

HELP (please)!

As a follow up to my post from a few days' ago, 4/8 of the cardinal tetras survived, and there were no deaths after baffling the filter outflow.

I decided to go back to the LFS to try and increase the size of the school. They confirmed that all of the fish had been quarantined prior to sale, and that the ones in their tanks looked healthy. They also confirmed that their pH was on the high end (they said about 7.5) and that the general hardness was between 100-150 or so ...

I ended up buying another 6 fish (they only charged me for two, which was nice of them) and suggested that I try drip acclimation this time.

I came home and setup a modified drip acclimation (was in between a 'drip' and a very slow flow) and let that run for a while (probably about 45 minutes in total). I then poured the water through a net and added the fish to the tank.

Within a couple of hours, two of them were dead, and all had died within 48 hours. Thankfully, the original 4 survivors from last week are still alive and kicking!

I am at a loss as to what to do next ...

I just had my water tested again at Petsmart, and they confirmed that all levels were fine. "Total hardness" was about 150, which they label as 'hard', Alkalinity was about 120, which they say is 'ideal', and pH was 7.8.

At this point, I feel ready to give up on the Cardinal Tetra experiment and just chalk it up to something they didn't like about my water. Perhaps my water is somewhat harder/higher pH than the LFS ...

Questions:

1) Are they remaining 4 CTs going to be OK on their own? It's a relatively small school but I really don't want to add more fish just to see them die ...

2) Can you please recommend what fish might do well in my hard/basic water? I would ideally like a schooling fish of some sort, and perhaps a mix of mid and bottom dwellers.

Thanks again for all of the advice and support!

 

[Andy Sager]

The remaining Cardinals should be fine as long as there are not predators in the tank to scare them.
I'm not 100% sure of your drip method but a proper drip should be a steady drip, drip, drip. Not running and not drip...............drip...............drip. Also, there needs to be aeration in the container as well. Did you have aeration in the bucket?
That the original 4 survived after the baffling to me points to the problem being that the others got injured and died so your acclimation method of the first time was fine. But Cardinals can be touchy and as I said before, they would not have been my first choice for a first fish in a new tank.

Moving on, some other schoolers that should do well in your tank would be the smaller Danios ( Zebra, Pearl, Leopard, Glo- in all their variations) but not ones like the Celestial Pearl Danios ( CPD) or Giant Danios. ( Too small and too large respectively. ) Danios are good water barometers because if something is wrong they don't do well. They are going to stay mid and lower levels. A school of 6 or 8 of those would be all you need. Keep in mind that you don't really have a lot of length in the tank so you can't bunch everybody up in the same levels. You really want a variety for the top, one or two for the middle and one for the bottom in a 20 high tank.
As for straight bottom, I'd either do the Habrosas or Salt & pepper cory.

Other fish to consider would be female bettas ( no males as they may see the colorful cardinals as a challenger), Black Neon Tetras. Glo-lite Tetras, Harlequin Rasboras ( a.k.a. Rasbora Hets. ). All these are hardy fish that have been tank bred and raised for some time so they should be able to handle your water if they are in the store within your water parameters.