Cycling question

[Andy Sager]

Thanks very much for the reply!

You make a good point. Perhaps, if I go ahead, I should try a different brand ... some folks seem to have had success with the Tetra product (SafeStart plus).

I had a related thought that I was hoping to get some feedback on ...

Clearly, my tank has a fairly well-established bacteria bed for the ammonia-consuming bacteria (BB #1), given that the ammonia I'm dosing (albeit not a huge amount) is gone in less than 12 hours. What's missing is the nitrite-consuming stuff (BB #2), so here's what I was thinking ...

Given that these bottled bacteria products claim to provide populations of both BB #1 and #2, what if I were to add them without adding any source of ammonia. There are plenty of nitrites in my tank to go around but no ammonia ... would this provide BB #2 a leg up to increase its population vs. BB #1?? If so, I wouldn't wait until my next ammonia dose ...

What do you think?

Seeing that your ammonia is gone in less than 24 hours, it proves that there is an active biological bed in the tank. What you may be experiencing is the improper water conditions for microbe #2 to multiply rapidly. Optimal Ph for this to happen is between 7.5 and 8.5. What is the Ph of your water?

That even with the additional ammonia you are putting in that the nitrite level does not go above 5 ppm, it should be that there are active #2s keeping that in check but not enough to overcome it all. You can see this with a nitrate test. If you have nitrates that did not come from your source water, it proves that there are microbe #2 present and active.

Patience is the key to this but I get your family may not have much of it at this point. There is another option but more costly which is why I did not suggest it from the start. Fritz makes Turbostart 700 which is #7 only 15 times the concentration of #7. That will speed up the process only because it will be putting in more of both microbes. That said, if the water conditions are not great for optimal growth of the microbes, you will have no issues now but some issues if you overload the tank down the road. By letting the biological bed grow at it's own rate, it will be stronger in the long run.
So the choice is yours.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Got it!

I thought I read somewhere that the two species were somehow competitive with one another and that if one grows faster than the other would be inhibited ...

I take it from your reply that this isn't the case.

Ive never heard that they compete. If you find the source of that please link it.

Where they "might" compete is for real estate. There is only so much space available for these microbes to grow on. If your filtration is undersized, you have no substrate etc, then its conceivable that the ammonia to nitrite microbes could completely take over all the limited surface area leaving no room for nitrite to nitrate microbes. But i find this situation highly unlikely. Nature has a way of finding balance, and i think in a situation where stage #1 microbes proliferate, leaving low ammonia/ high nitrite conditions, the stage #2 microbes would start to outcompete the stage #1 due to amount of food available and that equilibrium would be achieved regardless.

 

[Andy Sager]

Got it!

I thought I read somewhere that the two species were somehow competitive with one another and that if one grows faster than the other would be inhibited ...

I take it from your reply that this isn't the case.

Be careful of where you read what you read. There are a lot of misinformed people giving advice and writing papers on the internet. Stick to .edu or .org sites ( or here ) for reliable information.
They are not in competition for "food" since they eat different food. These microbes are found anywhere in the aquarium where there is a higher oxygen content in the water which is why they are found in greater quantity in the filter. But they can be found anywhere in the tank with good oxygenation so competition for "real estate" is minimal unless the tank itself has a dissolved oxygen content of less than .5 mg/l which is so low, the fish can't live in it. ( Fish require a minimum of 5 mg/l of dissolved oxygen to survive in water. )

So NO, that isn't the case.

 

[nlifs]

Seeing that your ammonia is gone in less than 24 hours, it proves that there is an active biological bed in the tank. What you may be experiencing is the improper water conditions for microbe #2 to multiply rapidly. Optimal Ph for this to happen is between 7.5 and 8.5. What is the Ph of your water?

Hello again!

My pH is right around 7.8, so I think it should be good for microbe #2.

Thank you for clarifying that the microbes do not actually compete with one another. Do you see any point in my adding additional BB from a bottle at this stage? I still think that, if I do add it, it would be best without ammonia because adding ammonia just serves to increase nitrites which I'm trying to avoid ...

 

[Aiken Drum]

You arent trying to avoid nitrite. The microbes you are trying to grow need nitrite as a food source so deliberately restricting it is counterproductive.

One of the purposes of a fish in cycle is deliberately dose higher amounts of waste than would occur naturally so the cycle completes faster.

 

[nlifs]

Agreed.

My thinking was that since my nitrites were already very high (around 5 or so for the last couple of weeks), I want to bring them down somewhat, hence the plan of not adding ammonia and giving time for the nitrite-eating bacteria to feast on what's already in the tank ...

Not deliberately restricting nitrites long term, just keeping them as-is while the bacteria builds up, then creating more by dosing ammonia, etc.

 

[Andy Sager]

Agreed.

My thinking was that since my nitrites were already very high (around 5 or so for the last couple of weeks), I want to bring them down somewhat, hence the plan of not adding ammonia and giving time for the nitrite-eating bacteria to feast on what's already in the tank ...

Not deliberately restricting nitrites long term, just keeping them as-is while the bacteria builds up, then creating more by dosing ammonia, etc.

It doesn't work that way. Starving A to enhance B only works on paper, not in real life ( or aquariums. ) The biological filter is a living breathing " organism" that grows and shrinks based on the amount of food present. So starving A so that B catches up will only reduce the A colony which puts you right back in trouble when you add fish again. What you want is a strong A colony that is constantly producing food for the B colony. In it's time, the B colony will catch up. ( Good that your Ph is 7.8 so in the optimal range.
) I would have a store check your nitrite & nitrate levels to confirm your readings before doing anything else. If the 5ppm is confirmed and there is minimal nitrate, using more #7 ( or the turboStart 700 ) will increase the amount of microbes #1 & #2 in the tank to help speed up the reduction of nitrites but then you would need to increase the amount of ammonia you would need to add to the tank to help feed the extra #1s you've added.
Yeah, cycling a tank gets real sciencey.

 

[nlifs]

Update with store testing!

Hello again!

Here's my 'report card' from the water testing at the store.

Looks like Nitrites were a bit less than what I thought but still up there somewhat ...

What do you suggest for next steps?

I do have a bottle of Tetra SafeStart+ ... should I add it? If so, should I dose another 1 ppm (or more) of Ammonia? Last dose was about 48 hours ago.

As discussed above, goal is to try and get cycle completed as soon as possible as the kids are really eager to get some fish ... also, there are some black Friday sales this weekend!

 

[Aiken Drum]

As said, adding safestart might help, but probably wont. Wont do any harm.

There is no magic bullet that will definitely speed things up. Getting filter media from an established, cycled, filter is the best bet if you can get hold of some.

Just follow the process. Test daily. If ammonia drops below 1ppm redose it back to 2ppm. Your tank will cycle in however long it takes.

If getting fish in the tank is the priority, then get some fish and do a fish in cycle properly.

 

[Andy Sager]

Hello again!

Here's my 'report card' from the water testing at the store.

Looks like Nitrites were a bit less than what I thought but still up there somewhat ...

What do you suggest for next steps?

I do have a bottle of Tetra SafeStart+ ... should I add it? If so, should I dose another 1 ppm (or more) of Ammonia? Last dose was about 48 hours ago.

As discussed above, goal is to try and get cycle completed as soon as possible as the kids are really eager to get some fish ... also, there are some black Friday sales this weekend!

What Aiken said.
I see a lot of nitrates so unless it came from your tap water, that means you have an active #2 bed just not a large enough one yet.

If you are going to do a fish in cycle, do a 100% water change the day before you get the fish so that they are starting in good clean water. Test nitrites daily so that they do not get to 1 ppm. Do water changes to keep the nitrite level low. Nitrite neutralizers are a short term answer because they only work for 24-48 hours so doing a water change is a better method.
Fish in cycles take months to fully cycle so you will most likely be testing for a while. The good news is that you already have an established colony of #1s & #2s so hopefully it will not be many months. You just have to keep your eyes on things as they can go bad rapidly.

On a side note, speaking as a former retailer, you have to be very careful on fish sales like Black Friday sales or Holiday sales. Stores generally bring in more fish than usual and overstock their tanks with the expectations that they will be selling them off before it becomes a problem. You have to be VERY, VERY careful not to get sick fish during these sales. I suggest you pick the fish you want and not let the salesperson catch what they want to catch. Look for fish that are swimming briskly, fins erect, no stringy poo, no shredded fins, no hiding. If you see multiple dead fish in a tank, ask the employee what other tanks are on the system they have and avoid them because if there is disease in one tank, it can be spread in a system that does not use measures to control spread. It's best to get fish from tanks that are individual tanks not on a system. You look for the same characteristics, no dead fish in the tank, etc. With individual tanks, there can be single tanks of sick fish while the rest of the tanks are healthy. The number 1 rule of long term success in fish keeping is " AVOID SICK FISH!" You do that by saying " No, I'll wait" when the fish does not meet the health requirement.

Hope this helps.

 

[nlifs]

Thank you both!

To clarify, I don't want to do a fish-in cycle (been there, done that) and would much prefer to complete the cycle before getting fish. Was just expressing a strong desire to get the cycle done before the weekend...

So ... Coming back to the current situation.

According to the store:

Ammonia = 0
Nitrites= 3
Nitrates= 40

And I already purchased the TSS+.

Questions:

1. Can/should I add the TSS+?
2. If so, how much ammonia should I dose?
3. Should I do a water change first? Not sure if Nitrites should be lowered before adding the TSS ...
4. Also, the TSS instructions say not to change the water for 7-14 days after adding. What if the tank cycles in two days? Wouldn't I want to do a water change before adding fish??

Unless the instructions are meant for scenarios where the tank hasn't cycled yet but if the cycle is complete then no issues with water change?

I will definitely be on the lookout for any sick fish whenever I do get to the LFS.

Thanks again!

 

[Andy Sager]

You can't rush Mother Nature. She fights back HARD.

As for the TSS, I doubt it's going to change anything more rapidly than the tank on it's own. Whether you add it or not, you should continue to add the ammonia every 2-3 days to 1 PPM so that you keep the #1 colony fed.

Since you have nitrates at 40 ppm, you can do a 50% water change before adding the ammonia and/or TSS

The waiting for 7-14 days is for tanks that have no bacteria at all. That's not your situation. Should the tank finish cycling in less than a week, you will want to add ammonia to 1 ppm, check for ammonia and nitrites in 24 hours, if both are 0, do a water change to reduce nitrates prior to adding fish. If nitrates are are in your tap water, the amount of water change only needs to be to the level the nitrates that are in your tap water is. ( If no nitrates in your tap water, the percentage of the water change will depend on how high the nitrate level is. The closer it is to 40PPM or higher, the more water you should change. )

 

[nlifs]

Hello again!

Dosed ammonia Tuesday night ... ammonia was zero by the morning and it looked like Nitrites were dropping somewhat during the day, although was still about 2 PPM as of Wednesday night.

Will test again tonight and likely dose another 1 PPM of Ammonia.

If and when the cycle concludes, I was hoping to get some clarity on next steps.

1. AFter I get 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites, should I try to dose another 1 PPM of ammonia and check 24 hours later, or perhaps up the dose to 2 PPM? Not sure how much ammonia the tank would typically produce once fully stocked ...
2. How many fish should I add after the tank is cycled? I was thinking of initially getting 6-8 platys ... would that be too much at once? Would it matter if I doses 1 or 2 ppm of ammonia from question #1?
3. I'm hoping to get a few small live plants after cycling. In view of that, how low do I need to get the nitrates before getting fish? Seems like I have less than 1 ppm of nitrates in my tap water ...

Thanks again for the sage advice!

 

[Aiken Drum]

A fully stocked aquarium typically produces around the equivalent of 0.5ppm of ammonia in 24 hours. But you arent wanting to cycle out 0.5ppm of ammonia in 24 hours. You want to never detect any ammonia or nitrite. You want clean water exiting your filter.

From trial and error, 2ppm of ammonia fully cycling out in 24 hours has been generally accepted as sufficient to have enough denitrifying microbes so that you never see ammonia or nitrite from a fully stocked tank. If you read through historic posts on forums, including this one, that figure of 2ppm has fluctuated from as low as 1ppm to as high as 4ppm. 2ppm is the figure generally arrived at. If you are only planning on lightly stocking your tank to start with, then 1ppm cycled out in 24 hours is going to be fine.

If this is the 20 gallon tank you mention previously, you should be fine to stock your 6 to 8 platys if you are cycling out 1ppm of ammonia to zero ammonia and nitrite in 24 hours. But continue to monitor water quality, and dont add any more fish until you are sure you arent seeing ammonia and/or nitrite spikes.

If your plan is to add live plants you dont want low nitrate. Plants need nitrogen, and aquatic plants generally get their nitrogen from nitrate. Conversely, fish dont need nitrate and high nitrate is harmful. You probably want 10 to 40ppm of nitrate to ensure your plants are getting enough nitrogen, while it not being too high for the fish. When your cycle is done, do sufficient water changes to bring it down to around to 10ppm before adding your fish and plants, and if your regular water changes keeps it in that 10 to 20ppm then thats a good place to be. If nitrate exceeds 40ppm, then consider you arent changing enough water, or perhaps you have too many fish.

 

[nlifs]

Yes, this is indeed the 20g tank I mentioned previously.

Thank you very much for the very helpful response.

One last favour ... any ideas/suggestions for stocking ideas? I've seen plenty online but curious if you have any specific recommendations for a community tank ...

Ideally, would like some livebearers as I think the kids would find them very interesting.

Thanks again!

 

[Aiken Drum]

I dont generally like to advise people on what to get as you would end up with what i would keep rather than what you would want.

If it where my 20 gallon/ 80 litre tank i would get a nice group of black phantom tetras.

But, you should look at some fish to occupy different levels of the tank. Maybe a handful of small corys that will live mostly on the substrate and clean up any uneaten food. If you are getting livebearers make sure you get all males or your tank will get overrun with fry. Even all females are likely already pregnant before you get them.

 

[Andy Sager]

Yes, this is indeed the 20g tank I mentioned previously.

Thank you very much for the very helpful response.

One last favour ... any ideas/suggestions for stocking ideas? I've seen plenty online but curious if you have any specific recommendations for a community tank ...

Ideally, would like some livebearers as I think the kids would find them very interesting.

Thanks again!

As Aiken said, it's tough to make suggestions because everybody has different tastes in fish and there are plenty of fish out there to fit most any taste. What you do want is to get species you like that will fill different levels ( Top, middle and bottom) in your aquarium.
Good bottom fish are the cory catfish and Plecostomus. There are some that stay small and eat either the leftover food or algae in the tanks. You need to research the different species of Plecostomus you might be interested in tho as some need wood in their diet for aiding digestion vs others that eat mainly algae. Most cory cats prefer moving water so you need to have some current at the bottom of the tank for them.
As for the livebearers, as Aiken said, you need to be prepared for fish overload if you get females. Yes, livebearer fish are an interesting group but when healthy, are very prolific and can easily overload a small tank like a 20 gallon. If you want the kids to witness the miracle of births, you need to be prepared for the day either the fry get eaten by other fish in the tank or the separating of the pregnant females so she can birth the fry with some privacy and the necessity for more tanks for the fry to grow in until they are large enough to not get eaten. If you aren't prepared for this, a tank of all males will prevent this from happening in most species but some, like Platies and Swordtails, can change gender and become functional females so you need to be aware of this. A tank of all male Guppies will be a very colorful and stay male but then you need to be careful not to mix fish that might nip at their colorful tails.

So you see, picking fish is not just looking at some you like but researching what gets along together as well. Temperament, preferred water parameters, where they will inhabit in the tank, food requirements are all things that need to be considered. It's best to get fish that like your water's natural parameters vs changing those parameters to meet a fish's requirements as your water will always try to go back to it's natural parameters.

On a side note, I started keeping fish at age 7 and learning all the science that was going on in the fish tank led me to a career in the sciences of fish keeping. So the more the kids are involved in all the technical stuff of fish keeping, the more it can help them in their school works, science classes and potential jobs in the future. You never know where fish keeping can lead to.

 

[nlifs]

Thank you both for the very insightful responses. Will try to do as much research as I can over the next couple of days ... and will definitely keep the kids involved in the learning process (they already know quite a bit about the nitrogen cycle, I think )

On a related note, happy to report that I think we're nearing the end of the cycle! As you can see in attached photo, tonight's measurements were as follows:

Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - not sure exactly ... more than 0 ... perhaps 5?

I'm actually a bit confused about the last measurement ... according to my 'report card' from PetSmart a few days ago, the nitrates were at 80! How did they drop from 80 to 5? Is it possible that the fact that there were nitrites impacted the nitrate measurements as well?

Anyways, I dosed another 1 ppm of ammonia and will check in about 24 hours to see if the measurements remain the same. If so, hoping to get fish on Sunday!

Two more questions ...

1) if nitrates remain low (say 5-10), how much of a water change should I do before I go shopping, given that I also want to get some live plants?

2) what is the "best practice" for acclimating fish AND plants ... for example, I was told to turn the lights off for the day when bringing new fish home ... but wouldn't that be bad for the plants?

Thanks again!

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you both for the very insightful responses. Will try to do as much research as I can over the next couple of days ... and will definitely keep the kids involved in the learning process (they already know quite a bit about the nitrogen cycle, I think )

On a related note, happy to report that I think we're nearing the end of the cycle! As you can see in attached photo, tonight's measurements were as follows:

Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - not sure exactly ... more than 0 ... perhaps 5?

I'm actually a bit confused about the last measurement ... according to my 'report card' from PetSmart a few days ago, the nitrates were at 80! How did they drop from 80 to 5? Is it possible that the fact that there were nitrites impacted the nitrate measurements as well?

Anyways, I dosed another 1 ppm of ammonia and will check in about 24 hours to see if the measurements remain the same. If so, hoping to get fish on Sunday!

Two more questions ...

1) if nitrates remain low (say 5-10), how much of a water change should I do before I go shopping, given that I also want to get some live plants?

2) what is the "best practice" for acclimating fish AND plants ... for example, I was told to turn the lights off for the day when bringing new fish home ... but wouldn't that be bad for the plants?

Thanks again!

For starters, Congrats!! It sounds like you are on your way. Second, your nitrate reading is wrong. You really need to shake the bottles really well before testing.( Shake for 1 minute) Nitrates do not magically disappear without live plants or water changes or nitrate absorbing pads or bad test results.

Since we know your nitrates are high ( based on the report card) I'd do at least a 75% water change to get those nitrates to approximately 15-20 ppm. Remember to check the light requirements for the plants you want. They come in low light, moderate light and high light varieties. Some are good for taking up the nitrates so you don't want the level to be too low for when you get them.

For acclimating fish, float the bag(s) in the tank for 15-20 minutes to get the waters the same temperature. ( If need be, remove some water from the tank into a container that is clean and never had soap in it to replace into the tank once you are finished acclimating. ) If your water parameters are close to the store's parameters, take a bucket and a net and pour the fish into the net then release them into the tank. Do not add any water from the bucket into the tank. If the water parameters from the store are not close to yours, after floating the bags, open the bags and add tank water to the bag at approximately 10% of the volume in the bag. Repeat adding water every 5(ish) minutes until you get to where the water in the bag is 75% +/- new water. ( You may need to clip the bag(s) to the tank to keep them from sinking. ) At that point use the bucket and net to pour the fish out and place into the tank. Do not put any bucket water into your tank. ( Replace the saved water
now and the missing water the next day to the tank. ) Turn the light off for the night so that the fish can remain calm while adjusting to their new surroundings. Best to put the light on a timer so that it goes on and off at regular/ consistent intervals. How long will be determined by the plants that you get. An occasional extra dark period is not going to hurt the plants when it's just for less than a 24 hour period.

Plants, you should read this before getting them so you are prepared: https://buceplant.com/blogs/aquasca...mended to keep them,A filter is not necessary.

Hope this helps.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - not sure exactly ... more than 0 ... perhaps 5?

I'm actually a bit confused about the last measurement ... according to my 'report card' from PetSmart a few days ago, the nitrates were at 80! How did they drop from 80 to 5? Is it possible that the fact that there were nitrites impacted the nitrate measurements as well?

A lot of these tests arent actually tests for what they say they are, they are just approximations that are useful. For example the API ammonia test isnt a test for ammonia, its a test for total ammonia nitrogen, which is free ammonia + ammonium. The API carbonate hardness test is actually a test for alkalinity. And the API nitrate isnt a test for nitrate either. I forget the specifics of what its testing for, but in effect it lumps nitrite and nitrate (and some other things) together. So once your nitrite disappears the nitrate appears to drop. But it hasnt in reality, its just that nitrite is no longer causing a falsely high nitrate test result. There is no point testing for nitrate while there is nitrite in the water, but in a cycled tank where there is no nitrite it should give you a fairly accurate nitrate reading. Testing for nitrate is especially difficult because so many things can throw off the test result. Even professional testing done in a laboratory find it very difficult to get accurate nitrate test results.

It could also be due to not shaking bottle #2 enough. You really have to shake the heck out of that bottle. Like bang it on the counter top, squeeze and distort the bottle to get the reagents unstuck from the side of the bottle. Abuse the bottle. Every 1ppm of ammonia comes out at 3.7ppm of nitrate, so your test result is a little low unless you have been water changes along the way.