Death, Death, and more Death.

[WashMan03]

Tetra bad, prime good. Prime great. Ive been reading this, and i gotta say most are staying on topic. I worry abt the cycle for the unstable factor. So wishy washy it could be the issue if its weak stock koi. I worry abt the gravel because because you stated it was chipping the color off when rinsing. I worry abt the fish cause i cant tell if you have koi or comets. Both have been stated. I worry because i keep a koi pond as well as many fish tanks, and i agree thats an awfully sudden death. But with no other Xs and Ys, it has to be the cycle or your local water. Prime prime prime if its water. I would buy stock in prime if i could. Ive seen it save fish. If prime cant fix it then there haz to be an issue with the cycle process. Good luck and im gonna keep racking my brain abt this as its got me intrigued. Just take it easy on us, were tryin to help avoid death, death, and more death.

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I appreciate your concern, however, me starting all the way over and NOT knowing exactly what killed my fish isn't good enough. I lost all my fish and I want to know why.

The gravel has been ruled out at this point. It is fine. The 40 gallon was thoroughly cleaned (vinegar and water) and rinsed (plain tap water) after the gravel was removed and fish were still dropping like flies the next time the aquarium was filled and conditioned.


I rinsed the gravel again thoroughly (in case there was contamination from the aquarium) and I'm using it in my 20 gallon now with my koi. They are all super happy! They are
swimming around, eating properly, and having a good time.

All water quality checks look great in the 20 gallon

I'm not worried about cycling as I've done it before and starting a new cycle wouldn't cause death (in new good water) starting at the 30 minute mark.

There was originally a mix of small koi and later I added a comet. around that time I decided it would be best to move to a bigger aquarium. Using the proper chemicals which I used to get my first aquarium going didn't work. I had been maintaining a nice aquarium for about a month.

I am doing some more tests as I type this to get to the bottom of the cause. Right now there is indication that the aquarium (even though cleaned as suggested) may actually be the cause of all of this due to some sort of contamination in (or before arriving to) the Petco store.

This last test will be very good at identifying the cause.

 

[WashMan03]

Also, I should mention that I'm not doing my test with Tetra after all. I will not be using that product at all.

 

[PoppaRyno]

Okey

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[Delapool]

Just re-reading and wondered if you had changed water in the 20gal recently close to when you set up the 40gal? Might have missed it(?) but was looking to see if it is the tap water or not. If you had done a recent pwc in 20gal when fish still in there (using same water conditioner) that might suggest the tap water is ok?

 

[PoppaRyno]

Also when your gettin some prime, check out another product from seachem called stability. Shld be right by the prime.

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[WashMan03]

Just re-reading and wondered if you had changed water in the 20gal recently close to when you set up the 40gal? Might have missed it(?) but was looking to see if it is the tap water or not. If you had done a recent pwc in 20gal when fish still in there (using same water conditioner) that might suggest the tap water is ok?

Yes! exactly! I completely agree with you. I was doing several PWC in the 20 gallon keeping the nitrogen cycle in check and using the same water conditioners.

So, your conclusion is the same as mine that the tap water and chemicals I was using should have been fine. Unless (as someone mentioned) the city somehow spiked water treatment that day or maybe the day before and my dosage was no longer strong enough or my conditioner went bad (even though it was obviously removing chlorine).

This is why over and over again I have been pointing to contamination (possibly the gravel) although at the time I had not considered the aquarium since it had only been a month from the time I purchased the same brand of aquarium.

I'm running (what appears to be) one last test now and getting some interesting. I will post my test and the results once this final stage has had enough time to play out.

 

[Delapool]

Ok tap water ruled out

I thought you thought the gravel was ok? Post 61? Laid up with flu so could well be mis-reading.

Are you adding any bacterial in a bottle doses or anything else that might be contaminated? I've seen tanks have mass die offs from stuff like rubber or cleaning products but was hoping the vinegar clean would of sorted (plus carbon).

Edit - ok, hope it works out with the tests you are doing now.

 

[WashMan03]

Ok tap water ruled out

I thought you thought the gravel was ok? Post 61? Laid up with flu so could well be mis-reading.

Are you adding any bacterial in a bottle doses or anything else that might be contaminated? I've seen tanks have mass die offs from stuff like rubber or cleaning products but was hoping the vinegar clean would of sorted (plus carbon).

Edit - ok, hope it works out with the tests you are doing now.

Yes I meant for the first day or so I was also including the gravel because I had not done a test to rule it out yet.

 

[kumamushu]

Did you ever consider you may be buying fish that are already too sick? And they cannot handle the transportation and stress of a new environment?
No matter what kind of water you put them in, if your buying fish that are already compromised just being bagged and moved could kill them. Those feeder fish in petsmart/petco are usually a mess. And wal-mart... That is the worst of the worst....

 

[Delapool]

Did you ever consider you may be buying fish that are already too sick? And they cannot handle the transportation and stress of a new environment?
No matter what kind of water you put them in, if your buying fish that are already compromised just being bagged and moved could kill them. Those feeder fish in petsmart/petco are usually a mess. And wal-mart... That is the worst of the worst....

That's what I thought as well but it looked like the first lot of fish were from the OPs 20gal?. I do agree on the stress, new fish, etc. Wondering on the gravel again - I've never had gravel chip off paint either.

 

[WashMan03]

Did you ever consider you may be buying fish that are already too sick? And they cannot handle the transportation and stress of a new environment?
No matter what kind of water you put them in, if your buying fish that are already compromised just being bagged and moved could kill them. Those feeder fish in petsmart/petco are usually a mess. And wal-mart... That is the worst of the worst....

Yes, I did ever consider that. But it wouldn't explain how all my well establish fish within a couple of minutes began acting strange when they entered the water and then died rapidly one by one. It also wouldn't explain how I can buy these fish, float them for over and hour and they are swimming around just fine and I slowly mix the water in with them and then when I transfer them into the aquarium within a few minutes they begin acting strange. And after the test last night I have confirmed that the 40 gallon tank is contaminated.

Did you read all of the posts in this thread? The fact that every single fish can be transported and in the bag for up to 2 hours acting fine the whole time (even while floating the bags) and then within a few minutes of being introduced to the 40 gallon (not anywhere else) all fish tuck in their fins, breathe slower, and then start dying one by one is suspicious. Every fish regardless of origin is acting EXACTLY the same after being introduced to this aquarium.

So, I ran a test last night that ended up confirming my theory. Now I just have to figure if it's possible for me to clean whatever has infected the aquarium out. I have changed the water in it completely 4 times now. I also cleaned it once with a 1/11 vinegar to water mix.

What could possibly be contaminating my tank this bad?

 

[Delapool]

My guess would be the gravel.

But are you adding anything else to water apart from water conditioner?

Not getting any tingling in any cuts on hands when in tank that might indicate an electrical problem? Tank temp is always stable?

No rubber or anything in filters? Stupid question but just checking the filter isn't including any packaging by accident?

Same with any tank ornaments - just checking they are safe. Or if any driftwood in there.

Nothing is getting sprayed near tank like a wall mounted mister or something?

Check gear used in pwc is not contaminated somehow.

Sure these have all been gone over but just in case.

 

[WashMan03]

My guess would be the gravel.

But are you adding anything else to water apart from water conditioner?

Not getting any tingling in any cuts on hands when in tank that might indicate an electrical problem? Tank temp is always stable?

No rubber or anything in filters? Stupid question but just checking the filter isn't including any packaging by accident?

Same with any tank ornaments - just checking they are safe. Or if any driftwood in there.

Nothing is getting sprayed near tank like a wall mounted mister or something?

Check gear used in pwc is not contaminated somehow.

Sure these have all been gone over but just in case.

Nothing is in the tank except water and fish. period... I ran a comprehensive test last night. If the gravel were bad then the fish in my 20 gallon should be dying. However, they are doing amazingly well.

I documented my testing procedures and my findings in a word document. I'm not done yet but I'm up to 2 1/2 pages. It is the aquarium itself. I don't need to post all that yet but it IS the aquarium. And if it was the gravel that contaminated the aquarium then my 20 gallon (which has never had any kind of water conditioner in it) should be infected but all of the fish in that aquarium are thriving, eating, swimming, etc. All water levels look great and there is 0 ammonia.

The fish in the 40 have lasted much longer this time so it appears that the contamination is slowly going away every time I fill up the aquarium and empty it. Is there another, better way to clean the aquarium?

 

[IllusionX]

Even bad silicone wouldn't kill fish that fast.

Didn't you said you tested super high ammonia on the 40G in one of your posts?

I would bleach everything in the 40G, rinse it twice. Fill it up, run it with prime and carbon for a couple days and empty again. Oh yeah, also use a scotchbrite to scrub all the surface too.

If you are still getting near instant death at this point, I would give up.

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[WashMan03]

So before taking the time to explain all of my procedures and results I need to figure out a way to clean it very well in a way that won't be harmful to fish.

 

[WashMan03]

Even bad silicone wouldn't kill fish that fast.

Didn't you said you tested super high ammonia on the 40G in one of your posts?

I would bleach everything in the 40G, rinse it twice. Fill it up, run it with prime and carbon for a couple days and empty again. Oh yeah, also use a scotchbrite to scrub all the surface too.

If you are still getting near instant death at this point, I would give up.

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The "ammonia" results were from chloramine in the water as the results were the same in several different containers. The chloramine is being neutralized and not the cause of the problem in my situation.


The tap water is not the problem and the water conditioner is not the problem. Even the water conditioner that I thought might be bad is fine.

 

[PoppaRyno]

How are we positive it was just the chloramines? On a break at work, and still brainstorming this.... Lol

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[WashMan03]

How are we positive it was just the chloramines? On a break at work, and still brainstorming this.... Lol

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Because if it were Chloramines in the water killing the fish I should have had a lot of dead fish last night.. and I did not. Again... I will post my procedures and results later... right now I'm in a hurry to get the tank cleaned up.

 

[WashMan03]

I am going to post my notes for the experiment so far. I'm just copying them out of word and typed them up really late last night. If I forgot to put something in them or something doesn't make sense please let me know so I can revise them to make things more clear.

 

[WashMan03]

It appeared at this point that either the brand new aquarium was somehow contaminated even after cleaning with vinegar water and thoroughly rinsing or the water conditioner is failing to neutralize chloramines (since chlorine was reading 0ppm on tests) either because it had gone bad or the city had changed the amount of chemicals it was putting in the water supply. So I decided to do one more test to determine the cause.

I setup three 5 gallon buckets. Cleaned each one with 1/11 vinegar to water mix and rinsed them thoroughly with plain tap water. I filled the buckets up with 5 gallons of tap water and neutralized them for chlorine, chloramines, ammonia and heavy metals in the following manner.



Bucket 1 – neutralized with existing bottle of Aqueon Water conditioner (possibly not working)



Bucket 2 – neutralized with new Aqueon water conditioner



Bucket 3 – neutralized with new Seachem Prime water conditioner

I tested water quality in all buckets. All tests look great. This time I purchased 12 goldfish that were approximately one to two inches in size. I purchased smaller goldfish for the last experiment because the negative effects of the water appeared to impact the smaller fish much faster in all of my previous situations.


I separated them into 4 different bags (3 in each bag) and floated 1 bag in each bucket and put the 4th bag in an existing aquarium using spring water (tested water quality and all levels looked great) having multiple fish for each water container is necessary to ensure proper testing. If I simply put one fish in each container and that fish dies it’s still likely that the fish could have just been weak. If I pick three fish at random and put them in different water containers and all the fish in a single water container die that indicates that there was a problem with the water or the container and not just those three particular fish.



*Thoughts*

If only all fish in bucket 1 get ill/die the old water conditioner has expired in less than a month (expiration dates isn’t until November 2018) and isn’t properly neutralizing chlorine



If only all the fish in buckets 1 and 2 get ill/die something has changed in the water supply that the Aqueon water conditioner isn’t capable of handling.



If only all the fish in all the buckets die the buckets are contaminated or something used in introduction procedure for buckets was contaminated



If all fish in all water containers die improper introduction procedures from bags to new water source.



If none of the fish get ill/die there is a problem with the 40 gallon aquarium itself.

Any other scenario (i.e. all fish in bucket 3 and 2 get ill/die) and this will greatly complicate things and further testing will be required.

I performed the same technique I mentioned previously to introduce these fish to their new water containers. I floated the bags for 15 minutes, added some water from the respective container into the bag and then repeated this step 3 more times. I was careful when testing water levels, adding water to bags and transferring fish out of the bags to avoid cross contamination of water conditioners between buckets by using different cups for each bucket.

I monitored the fish for a couple of minutes and then decided to leave them alone for a few hours.
=================================================================================



Hour 3

Spring water aquarium (all goldfish appear healthy swimming around, fins out, exploring the tank)

Bucket 1, Bucket 2, and Bucket 3 - (all goldfish appear healthy – They are mostly stationary but are staying upright with their fins out moving them every once in a while. The move when I approach, shine light into or barely tap on the bucket.)
This indicates that all water and fish in the buckets are good. None of the fish in any of the buckets or feeling ill. This eliminates the possibility of bad water conditioner. And begins pointing at the 40 gallon aquarium itself

So at hour 3 I moved the contents of bucket 1 and bucket 2 (known good water with Aqueon conditioner and known good fish) to empty 40 gallon aquarium (10 gallons now in aquarium). I waited several minutes to check on fish. All fish appeared to be acting normal. I waited 1 hour and checked them again. All fish were looked like they were doing well swimming around with fins out exploring the tank.
=================================================================================


Hour 4

After the fish had been in the aquarium for 1 hour I began filling up the aquarium using bucket one and bucket two and the original Aqueon water conditioner. I made sure to get the temperature of the water in the buckets within 0.1F of the water temperature in the aquarium and a quality check showed both water sources to be identical (PH, chlorine, etc.) using a Tetra test strip.


I filled the aquarium up with 25 additional gallons of water. This totaled 35 gallons of water in the 40 gallon aquarium. I observed the fish for several minutes and they all appeared to be acting normal.

The fish in Bucket 3 and in the 20 gallon aquarium are still healthy and doing well.
=================================================================================



Hour 5

After the fish have been in the aquarium two hours I noticed 2 fish not acting properly (fins tucked in sitting at bottom of aquarium) and a short time later one of them was dead.


I waited several minutes and checked back on the fish to find 4 of the remaining 5 fish were now sitting on the bottom with their fins tucked in.

The fish in Bucket 3 and in the 20 gallon aquarium are still healthy and doing well and these fish have been in their containers for 5 hours straight now.
=================================================================================



Hour 6

I checked on the fish in the 40 gallon aquarium. 5 fish are still alive and acting the same. Four of them are sitting at the bottom with their fins tucked in (usually) and only occasionally moving. The fifth fish is sitting close to the bottom with his fins out usually.

Bucket 3 – all fish are healthy and responsive. They are staying upright with their fins and moving when I come up to the bucket. They will react when I shine a light in the bucket.
20 gallon spring water aquarium – Fish are healthy and swimming around the tank.

I did an ammonia test on the 20 gallon aquarium after having my two baby koi in it for over 24 hours and it came back 0ppm using an API liquid ammonia test kit. The spring water aquarium did not have water conditioner used in it. It has two aerators in it so I took one aerator and put it in bucket 3 and one aerator and put it in the 40 gallon aquarium.


I allowed each one to oxygenate for approximately 15 minutes before putting them back into the 20 gallon spring water aquarium.
=================================================================================



Hour 7

I checked on the fish in the 40 gallon aquarium. All 5 fish are still alive and still in about the same condition. One is looking worse.
Bucket 3 – all fish are healthy and responsive. They are staying upright with their fins out and moving. When I come up to the bucket they will swim around quickly for a second and then stop.

20 gallon spring water aquarium – Fish are healthy and swimming around the tank.

3:30AM – time for some sleep
=================================================================================



Hour 12

40 gallon – another fish has died – ALL remaining fish are now sitting at the bottom breathing slowly with finds tucked in not moving. Tapping the tank or shining a light on them yields no movement

Bucket 3 – all three fish are alert and appear to be normal. They are responsive when I walk up to the bucket or shine a light in it and appear to be in great health.

20 gallon spring water aquarium – all fish are alert and appear to be normal swimming around the tank.
=================================================================================



Hour 14

All the fish in the 40 gallon aquarium are breathing very slowly and sitting at the bottom with their fins tucked in. I was able to reach in and pick the fish up with my hand. I gently transferred them to bucket 3 to see if they would recover.

Bucket 3 – After 14 hours in the same 5 gallon bucket all three original fish are alert and appear to be normal. They are responsive when I walk up to the bucket or shine a light in it and appear to be in great health.

20 gallon spring water aquarium – all fish are alert and appear to be normal swimming around the tank and eating when food is provided.

I checked back on the fish in the bucket after about 15 minutes. All the fish except for two are responsive now with their fins out. If I barely tap on the bucket or approach it they are responsive. Two fish are still sitting with their fins tucked in and not responding as quickly to stimuli. All fish appear to be breathing normally at this point.

I waited 20 more minutes and checked back on bucket #3. All fish except 1 have their fins out and are responsive. All fish appear to be breathing normally.