Dosing Ammonia & Readings for Fishless Cycle

[stlbluz]

I've been dosing my 36gl tank with 2ml of ammonia which initially gave me a reading of 4ppm. I had my off the charts spike so I did a 50% WC and resumed my routine. I recently started getting trite(5.0) & trate(20-40range) readings but now my ammonia is only reading 1.0, sometimes less.

Should I keep adding the same 2ml of ammonia?
Is this an indication that I'm close?
Once I get the 24hr conversion going should I still do a 90% WC 24 hours prior to adding fish?

This Friday I'll be at the 9 week mark of the fishless cycle due to some rookie mistakes. I've been running an Aqueon Quietflow 30 since the beginning & added an Aquaclear 50 about 4-5 weeks ago. I'm wondering about the condition of the filters once my cycle is complete? How long should I wait before changing the filter in the Aqueon & cleaning the media in the Aquaclear?

Any input on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Masha]

"Should I keep adding the same 2ml of ammonia?"

No - dose up to the same ammonia level of 4ppm. So you'll be guessing a bit at first until you figure out how much. I found that at this point, it's more helpful to get a syringe and count how many drops of ammonia I add, teaspoons were just not accurate enough and I kept putting in too much.

"Is this an indication that I'm close?"

It is! But I've found that this stage can last for a while, so don't get impatient if it takes a while before you get a 0 nitrite reading. I think the last time I did it, it took about 18 days. It does vary, but in my experience, this is the stage where you just have to be patient. It WILL happen

"Once I get the 24hr conversion going should I still do a 90% WC 24 hours prior to adding fish?"

That's correct. After 24hr converting 4ppm of ammonia, the nitrate levels will be high. Do a wc to get them down.

"How long should I wait before changing the filter in the Aqueon & cleaning the media in the Aquaclear? "

I don't have an Aqueon filter so I cant help you with that, but I found with my Aquaclear filter, I just keep an eye on it. You'll se that the water starts overflowing a bit on the intake side, on the left, if it is a bit clogged up. Then it's time to give it a rinse. It varies for me, sometimes it takes 2 weeks, sometimes longer. But I've got a pre-filter spunge on the intake pipe, which helps reduce clogging.

 

[RadMax8]

I would definitely keep dosing ammonia. Bacteria's gotta keep eating!

As far as changing/cleaning your filters, I would wait until they look like they need a good cleaning. Right now you've got nothing in your tank that's making waste, so really all that the filters are doing is removing any plant/substrate debris and cultivating bacteria. Wait until you get some fish pooping in there to clean them.

Also, I would just clean the quiet flow filter cartridge out in tank water, and only replace it when absolutely needed. You're growing a lot of bacteria in that filter, to throw it away would remove a lot of your biological filtration. Only replace when it's falling apart.


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[stlbluz]

Thanks Guys. I'm so glad I stumbled across this site!

 

[stlbluz]

I seem to be stuck at these readings. The first is what I get every day prior to dosing & the second is my ammonia reading after adding another 3ml. I'm being really patient but it seems that the nitrite isn't budging at all.

 

[RadMax8]

So, what I did was not dose ammonia for a couple days. I read somewhere that for each ppm of ammonia, about 2 ppm of nitrite is created. So, it would take a little longer to process the nitrite.

I didn't dose ammonia in my tank for about 4 or 5 days, I tested before I dosed and ammonia and nitrite were zero. 24 hours after dosing to 5 ppm ammonia, my levels were at 0 for ammonia and deep purple for nitrite. I'm going to measure for nitrites to see how long it takes to process.


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[stlbluz]

Thanks for responding but now I'm a little confused. From what I'm reading here is that the goal now is to convert 4ppm ammonia to 0ppm ammonia & 0ppm nitrite within 24 hours. I'd sure hate to set myself back even further by stalling the cycle by not adding ammonia. Thoughts?

 

[Masha]

I've not reread the whole thread so I might be missing something you've already said...

In the middle of establishing the cycle, when you've got ammonia --> nitrite bacteria doing their thing (nitrosomonas) but not much of the nitrite --> nitrate bacteria (nitrospira), you'll have a stage where the nitrite levels go off the charts high, but no, or very little nitrate is appearing.

This happens because the nitrospira takes a lot longer to duplicate itself - about 12 - 32 hours, while nitorosomonas takes about 7 hours to duplicate. So the first stage comes into place faster than the second stage, and the second stage takes a lot longer to develop.

The tricky thing is that some people believe that although they feed on nitrites, nitrosomona duplication can be slowed down by a too high level of nitrite. So when those nitrites start peaking, it can slow down the cycling process. This is why I dose less than 4ppm ammonia to start with - a bacterial colony that can convert 2ppm of ammonia is plenty for a well stocked tank, and adding that amount of ammonia while cycling means not quite such big nitrite peaks.

But either way- the thing to do at this stage, when you have off the charts nitrites, is to do huge water changes, to get those nitrite levels down, and then to add just enough ammonia to keep the level steady, at 4ppm, 2ppm, whatever you choose. Sometimes it took me as much as 3 x 70% water changes to get the nitrite levels down to something that registered as less than off the charts purple.

I found it helpful to switch to using a dropper or a syringe to add ammonia at this stage, as teaspoons are not accurate enough - too easy to dose a bit more or a bit less.

It does take time, and there is a stage where it feels like nothing is happening, and nothing will. But it does work out in the end!

 

[PNWaquarist]

Thanks for responding but now I'm a little confused. From what I'm reading here is that the goal now is to convert 4ppm ammonia to 0ppm ammonia & 0ppm nitrite within 24 hours. I'd sure hate to set myself back even further by stalling the cycle by not adding ammonia. Thoughts?

If your nitrite appears to be stuck in the 5 ppm range during your spike, what you could do is wait a day or two, add 0.5 ppm ammonia, wait another day or two, add another 0.5 ppm ammonia, etc. You'll want to keep your ammonia-consuming bacteria alive during your nitrite spike, but also not stall the growth of your nitrite-consuming bacteria by overloading it with too much nitrite.

 

[stlbluz]

If your nitrite appears to be stuck in the 5 ppm range during your spike, what you could do is wait a day or two, add 0.5 ppm ammonia, wait another day or two, add another 0.5 ppm ammonia, etc. You'll want to keep your ammonia-consuming bacteria alive during your nitrite spike, but also not stall the growth of your nitrite-consuming bacteria by overloading it with too much nitrite.

With or without a WC thrown in? I was going to do a 70% WC tonight as suggested but may do this instead just to see if it helps.

 

[PNWaquarist]

With or without a WC thrown in? I was going to do a 70% WC tonight as suggested but may do this instead just to see if it helps

In general, you should try to avoid doing water changes during your cycle. Only do them if your ammonia or nitrite levels get out of hand and there isn't enough bacteria yet to bring them back down. The problem with water changes is that you need to add dechlorinator, and almost all of the dechlorinators on the market also temporarily (48 hours or so) bond ammonia and nitrite. While the folks at Seachem and others claim that nitrifying bacteria can utilize bonded bacteria and nitrite, others claim that this isn't the case (or, at the very least, that the bacteria cannot feed off of the ammonia or nitrites as effectively).

In your case, however, it appears that you've been stuck with high nitrites for several days. What I would do in your situation is wait a day or two (your ammonia-consuming bacteria won't die) and see if the nitrite-consuming bacteria can knock down your nitrites. In the meantime, prepare two 10-gallon buckets as if you're going to do a 20 gallon water-change and add your dechlorinator (Prime or whatever you're using). Do this right now and let the buckets of water sit somewhere for two days. If the nitrites in your tank haven't dropped below 5 ppm in 48 hours, switch out 20 gallons of your tank water with this new, dechlorinated water. (By this time, the dechlorinator in your fresh water should be less able to tie up ammonia and nitrite. The volatile reducing agents will also be mostly gone.) Add 1 ppm ammonia to your tank after the water change to get your cycle started again. Knowing that 1 ppm ammonia produces 2.7 ppm nitrite, you should be able to dose your tank with ammonia without producing too much nitrite and stalling the process.

 

[RadMax8]

I measured my nitrites this evening when I got home from work. They read zero. So, just to review:

I went out of town for a couple days and no ammonia was added during that time. When I came home Sunday, I measured for ammonia and nitrites. Both levels were at zero. I dosed to 5 ppm ammonia on Monday. Less than 24 hours later, I had zero ammonia, but a lot of nitrites. I did not add more ammonia at this point. Tonight when I measured, my nitrites are down to zero.

So maybe by dosing to 4 ppm every time you go to zero, you aren't giving your nitrite-eating bacteria a chance to catch up, since 1 ppm ammonia transfers to 2.7 ppm nitrite.

Just a thought, sorry if I'm confusing things!

 

[PNWaquarist]

I measured my nitrites this evening when I got home from work. They read zero. So, just to review:

I went out of town for a couple days and no ammonia was added during that time. When I came home Sunday, I measured for ammonia and nitrites. Both levels were at zero. I dosed to 5 ppm ammonia on Monday. Less than 24 hours later, I had zero ammonia, but a lot of nitrites. I did not add more ammonia at this point. Tonight when I measured, my nitrites are down to zero.

So maybe by dosing to 4 ppm every time you go to zero, you aren't giving your nitrite-eating bacteria a chance to catch up, since 1 ppm ammonia transfers to 2.7 ppm nitrite.

Just a thought, sorry if I'm confusing things!

That strategy makes sense to me. In fact, I'd dose 3 ppm ammonia just to be sure. That's more than enough for your ammonia-consuming bacteria.

If your bacteria were able to completely consume 5 ppm ammonia in 24 hours, and then completely consume the resulting nitrite 24 hours later, your cycle will probably be complete in a couple more days. When you can add 3 ppm ammonia and then have 0 ppm ammonia and 0 ppm nitrite 24 hours later, you're done. Do a huge (70-90%) water change and add fish.

 

[Masha]

In general, you should try to avoid doing water changes during your cycle. Only do them if your ammonia or nitrite levels get out of hand and there isn't enough bacteria yet to bring them back down. The problem with water changes is that you need to add dechlorinator, and almost all of the dechlorinators on the market also temporarily (48 hours or so) bond ammonia and nitrite. While the folks at Seachem and others claim that nitrifying bacteria can utilize bonded bacteria and nitrite, others claim that this isn't the case (or, at the very least, that the bacteria cannot feed off of the ammonia or nitrites as effectively).

That's interesting, PNWaquarist.
I always thought that Prime temporarily converts ammonia to ammonium, which the nitrifying bacteria can process.

I did a bit of an online search, and while I find lots of forum posts where people claim that you should not use Prime while establishing the cycle, I can't find any more reputable resources that explain why this is. Do you have a link for me to such an article?

 

[PNWaquarist]

That's interesting, PNWaquarist.
I always thought that Prime temporarily converts ammonia to ammonium, which the nitrifying bacteria can process.

No, ammonium (NH4+) is the natural form in which the vast majority of ammonia (NH3) exists under typical tank conditions. And this is based solely on pH. Under more acidic conditions, more ammonium is present. The closer that you get to pH 10, the more of it will be in the ammonia form.

NH4+ + OH- <=> NH3 + H2O

I don't know whether the nitrifying bacteria directly use ammonia or ammonium, but they're in rapid equilibrium with one another. In essence, this means that if one form is used by the bacteria, it'll be replenished until the total ammonia (ammonia + ammonium) runs out. I also know that these bacteria reproduce more slowly below pH 6.5 and above pH 8.5, so there are obviously other factors at play.

Several weeks ago, I did a Google search on the mechanism of Prime's detoxification of ammonia. I didn't save the results, but ended up reading Seachem's online tech support and their customer reps mentioned that Prime reacts with ammonia to form an imidium compound. This compound is not stable and begins to break down after 48 hours (probably via hydrolysis or oxidation, I'm guessing).

I did a quick Google search just now and came up with this, which describes some of what I said above.

I did a bit of an online search, and while I find lots of forum posts where people claim that you should not use Prime while establishing the cycle, I can't find any more reputable resources that explain why this is. Do you have a link for me to such an article?

I'm getting this information from Tim Hovanec, via the DrTim's Aquatics web site. He claims that ammonia-binders will slow the cycling process. He's also the guy who discovered, published, and patented the supposed "correct" species of nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in present in aquariums.

I've read elsewhere (in several places) that ammonia (NH3) is the form that is most easily used by nitrifying bacteria. If the ammonia temporarily reacts to form an imidium compound when Prime is added, it makes sense that its bioavailability would be significantly less in this form.

 

[Masha]

Imidium!

OK, that's something I did not know about, thanks for that. Thanks for the links, I'll have a look at them now.

 

[Masha]

Sorry, just quickly, (am still reading those links!) all I see so far, is Dr Tim Hovanec saying overdosing with Prime will slow the cycle.

I read that as meaning using Prime in the recommended dose is fine? Am I wrong?

 

[PNWaquarist]

Sorry, just quickly, (am still reading those links!) all I see so far, is Dr Tim Hovanec saying overdosing with Prime will slow the cycle.

I read that as meaning using Prime in the recommended dose is fine? Am I wrong?

He says that one shouldn't use ammonia-binders, and that overdosing with these products will slow the cycle. The way I read that is that the overdosing is inherent in these products - they provide a large excess of a compound that reacts with ammonia. And that would make sense, given that the manufacturers of Prime, SafeStart, etc. have no idea how much ammonia is in your tank. It would make sense for them to error on the safe side and put a very liberal dosage of ammonia-binder in their product.

Even if the ammonia-binding compounds in Prime magically matched the exact level of ammonia in your tank, the result would be the same: The ammonia in your tank would be converted to the imidium compound and your cycle would slow.

 

[stlbluz]

Good advice all around. I appreciate the input & will try the different approach.