Driftwood & Ph

[deli_conker]

Here's the skinny...

I am currently setting up a 55 gallon tank for a few mbunas. It has been up and running for about a week (no fish yet). I am still adding terrain to the tank and want to be ready to populate by the new year.

I used a finely crushed coral for the substrate as a buffer, but had also purchased a really nice piece of driftwood without knowing that it would lower the Ph.

I had already started treating the driftwood by soaking it in hot water (approx. 180 degrees) with 2-3 water changes a day. This has been going on for about 5 days now and the drainage is just barely tinted yellow/brown at this point.

My tap water Ph comes out at right around 7.0
The tank I am setting up reads at about 7.8
The water that the wood has been soaking in (at least 8 hours) is around 6.6

I was planning on putting the wood into the tank after about 3 more days of treatment and waiting about a week to see where the Ph stablizes at so I could determine whether or not I would keep it in or not.

1) Is this enough time for it to be in the tank to give an accurate representation of where the Ph will stablize?

2) What is the lowest acceptable Ph (ballpark) for the fish I want to keep?

3) Is there any other non-chemical ways to increase Ph other than what I have done thus far?

I am using two Fluval 203 canisters and was thinking about throwing some coral into one of the media chambers to force water past/through. The logic behind this is that the moving water will erode it faster thus raising the Ph. I am sure that the nitrogen cycle bacteria will love to stick to it as well. Don't know how accurate my thinking on this one is, though.

I am hoping that this will work out as I don't want to have wasted money on the wood and delay my tank starting up as well while I wait for the Ph to re-stablize.

Sorry so long winded, but thanks for any help...

 

[possum]

With the crushed coral substrate the driftwood wont be able top lower the ph it isnt going to do very much anyway and the crushed coral will reverse any ph drops that it "may" cause.

 

[deli_conker]

Thanks for the info.

Retested Ph in both tank and the water that the wood has been soaking in. All are about the same. Tank about 7.7, wood about 6.7.

Water the the wood has been soaking in still has yellow cast about it. Will a diatom filter remove this from the tank after I put it in?

I am also curious as to how the whole Ph thing works;

If one thing raises the Ph by a certain amount and another thing lowers the Ph by the same, will they cancel each other out? Or could one 'overpower' the other?

 

[mattrox]

Coral is mainly calcium carbonate. It reacts with acid to neutralise it. As long as you have more calcium carbonate than acid produced from the wood, then the pH will be above 7. If the wood is producing acid very quicky (faster than it can react with the calcium carbonate) then the pH will be below 7.

Your pH 6.7 has 10 times the number of hydrogen ions in it than the water of pH 7.7.

 

[deli_conker]

When you say "more" are you refering to weight or surface area?

I have 55 pounds of coral. The wood weighs between 5-10 pounds (waterlogged).
It's a standard 55 gallon, so that gives 576 square inches plus all the nooks and crannies of coral vs. a guesstimate of about 250 square inches of wood.

Water motion has to have some effect upon this as well. That's why I was wondering about putting coral in the media chambers.

Not sure how hydrogen ions affect the whole thing. I don't know THAT much about Ph; just the basics. (acid, nuetral, alkaline. It's a scaled system, like decibles) I just don't know all of the chemical interactions that effect it.

I am still wanting to know about keeping my water clear after I put the wood in. Will a diatom filter achieve this?

 

[mattrox]

More particles on the molecular level.
With that amount of coral you shouldn't have any acid problems. For a long time anyway.

 

[ScottS]

I have two pieces of driftwood in my tank and only wish it would have much of an effect on ph. Despite it only being 20 gallons, the tank just doesn't react much to the driftwood. I'd certainly not worry about it.

 

[LondonGman]

I am still wanting to know about keeping my water clear after I put the wood in.

Charcoal helps a bit in keep the water clear. In my case, it actually made my water crystal clear again (or my wood coincidentally stopped decolouring my water at the same time I added the charcoal)

 

[deli_conker]

I actually put the wood in on Friday night. I tested the Ph on Sunday morning and it had actually risen 7.8 or so. Water was a little cloudy after moving stuff around, but I added some carbon to both of my canisters (Saturday) to help clear it up some and will probably leave it in to hold some bacteria.

Put 3 oz. of bio-spira in the tank while the fish I bought were in the bags floating on the suface. Added them about 30 minutes later after acclimating them to the tank temperature and water chemistry.

I will have pics up next weekend or so for your viewing pleasure.

Thanks to all who responded to this thread with accurate info.

 

[ostrichkiller]

i too vouch highly for charcoal. my UGF (no attacks please i'm losingit after i chenge the tank) came with 4 charcoal filters that said they needed to be removed every other month. i thought that was kinda rediculous and was going to do it every 3 or 4 till the middle of the second month hit and you could tell the charcoal hit its end and the tank got cloudy. checked levels and vacuumed and tried everything thinknig there was no way the charcoal was bad already, replaced it as a last resort and the water cleared up within 1 hour or 2

 

[possum]

and will probably leave it in to hold some bacteria.

This is a recipe for disaster once the carbon has absorbed all that it can it is a timebomb waiting to go off.....if one day you for some reason have a sudden ph shift everything it absorbed is going right back in the tank...just thought you might wanna know that

 

[deli_conker]

I've heard conflicting information on the whole carbon thing...

The only reason I used it was to speed up water clarification after adding the driftwood, otherwise I probably wouldn't have added it. If it's not broke, don't fix it...

I've never heard of carbon releasing stuff that it had previously adsorbed. I'll have to do some more research on that. I have heard of people keeping it in the hopes that bacteria will attach to all those tiny little pores in the carbon though.

If it does eventually release that which it holds, how long will it take to get to that point? Does tank size matter in this? Does being marine or freshwater change this? Why will it affect Ph?

My personal experience is only with a 10 gallon tank with a bio-wheel filter and undergravel filter (air powered). It has been cycled (with no fish loss) and running the original filters and carbon for about 10 months. Aside from expected water condition changes during the initial cycle, I have experienced no sudden shifts at all.

I'm not saying that carbon doesn't release stuff after it has been used, just that I've never heard of it before...

 

[LondonGman]

This is a recipe for disaster once the carbon has absorbed all that it can it is a timebomb waiting to go off.....if one day you for some reason have a sudden ph shift everything it absorbed is going right back in the tank...just thought you might wanna know that

I never heard that before and was worried. Did a search on Google and only found one article

http://www.snowblack.com/carbon/wcarbon2.htm

and it said

In theory activated carbon could release or desorb what it removed at some point. But practical experience with aquarium filtration and laboratory experiments show desorption rarely occurs or causes any type of “toxic release?

Phew, worried about my Brita water filter too. can anyone find more info on this issue please. has anyone done research on this issue as i have charcoal in my tank and thought it was OK.

 

[dralarms]

Phew, worried about my Brita water filter too. can anyone find more info on this issue please. has anyone done research on this issue as i have charcoal in my tank and thought it was OK.

Yea can you think about all that clorine and other stuff we remove with our drinking water filters.

 

[sweetsuvvyb]

Why I don't worry about leaving my carbon in somewhat indefiitely (or my water filter):

In order for the carbon to release whatever it's holdin' on to, a more "grabby" substance would have to be introduced. Generally there is nothing being added to your system that fits that criteria (exception: medications). I just can't see all the carbon one day deciding to "let go" of everything....doesn't make sense, really.

Tap water as well is amazingly consistent, so again, there will very rarely be an instance where your filter is going to encounter something that initiates a release of all the junk it's been filtering out.

The problem is, really, that the carbon can only hold so much...so I ca see the concern in leaving it in...it isn't really doing anything, and is holding onto a lot of junk you might not want in your tank. But there's no reason to expect that someday it'll just cease holding onto all that stuff, without the introduction of something into the tank.

HTH

 

[toddwess]

I am still wanting to know about keeping my water clear after I put the wood in.

Charcoal helps a bit in keep the water clear. In my case, it actually made my water crystal clear again (or my wood coincidentally stopped decolouring my water at the same time I added the charcoal)

Am I understanding this properly that drift wood in freshwater setups can cloud the water??

I've been fighting cloudy water for WEEKS and have a huge piece of new driftwood in there. I never treated it or anything.

Should I take it out??

Thanks,
Todd

 

[deli_conker]

I treated my wood for about a week. Probably could have put it in sooner, but better safe than sorry.

I have a 15 gallon tub that i put it in. Stuck that in my bathtub and filled it full of hot water (my water heater is always cranked). I would do that in the morning, after work, and before bed. I did this for 6-7 days. By the end, the water was only slightly discolored which could have been the lighting in the room.

When I put it in the tank I also added the carbon. I added it for two reasons...

a) to pick up any tannin (discoloration in the water caused by the wood, same reason tea turns dark when you brew it).

b) I am using a crushed coral subtrate. I actively washed it by hand, several times (let's just say that my girlfriend loves how soft my hands are now). But now matter how much you wash it, it will never run 100% clean. You have to let the 'dust' settle or otherwise pull it out of the water by some other method. When I added the wood I had to move stuff around which put a little cloudiness in the water. It wasn't so bad that I couldn't see through the tank, but I like my water clear.

What size tank do you have? Are there fish already in it or are you still setting up? What type of filtration are you using?

You could try to take it out and see if that helps, but I can't say for certain what your cloud is caused by without knowing more. From other posts I have read everybody says to treat the wood (even if it is "pre-treated") just in case. I have read that some use salt and/or boiling water when they treat it, I didn't. So far my tank looks great. I won't really know for certain until the carbon stops sucking up impurities though...

I read in a couple places about people adding stuff to thier tank without washing it and the fish end up dying. I take that advice to heart although I do admit that it is sometimes hard to fight the impatience to give it a quick rinse and toss it in.

 

[dralarms]

I've been fighting cloudy water for WEEKS and have a huge piece of new driftwood in there. I never treated it or anything

If it's been in ther for weeks then I would say no, but if you just put it in I would say yea, get it out and treated. I forgot to treat mine. I haven't had any problems (except getting it to sink), no tannins, no change in my water par. it's been in since the 29th of Nov. Alot of it depends on where you got it.

 

[LondonGman]

Am I understanding this properly that drift wood in freshwater setups can cloud the water??

I've been fighting cloudy water for WEEKS and have a huge piece of new driftwood in there. I never treated it or anything.

Should I take it out??

Frankly I do not know as I am not an expert on driftwood.

My experience is that when the driftwood is bought from the shop, it should be thoroughly washed and soaked. I was too impatient to soak it for a week so when I added it to the my tank after only one night in water.

It discoloured my water, as deli_conker described, in a tea like colour. I did not have a cloudy effect. I introduced charcoal (a lot of it) to the uplift pipe and it cleared up.

I suppose you have to determine what is making your water cloudy, if it is due to a chemical reaction then charcoal could help but if it is due to fine particle in the water, then some form of mechanical filer may be needed,

If your filtration system cannot deal with that, a small box filter, usually less than $5 to your tank.

 

[dralarms]

I got a big 4 1/2 ft piece last month when I visited my brother, brought it home. I did take it to the lfs to see what he thought about it, then I whacked off just enough so that it fit my tank with about 2 1/2 to spare and dropped it in.