Fishkeeping ethics

[jetajockey]

i don't know if electric blue is a very good example since they are a natural occurrence in the wild, but I think he was just talking about man made fish in general, I mean where to draw the line on the veiltails, some fish have tails so long that they can hardly get around. And the inbreeding it takes to keep a certain rare trait like electric blue often results in very weak fish stocks.

 

[HalfMoon B]

i don't know if electric blue is a very good example since they are a natural occurrence in the wild, but I think he was just talking about man made fish in general, I mean where to draw the line on the veiltails, some fish have tails so long that they can hardly get around. And the inbreeding it takes to keep a certain rare trait like electric blue often results in very weak fish stocks.

Agreed. I was just wondering about that. I have never kept a fish that actually had "electric" in their common name.

 

[jetajockey]

Also, for fish eating fish videos, is that cruel/unethical or sadistic? I'm sure the fish being fed doesn't mind

I think the issue is when people use this as a form of entertainment. A part of me finds a predator stalking its prey a riveting experience, but another part wonders what it's like to be hunted.

 

[eco23]

I think the issue is when people use this as a form of entertainment. A part of me finds a predator stalking its prey a riveting experience, but another part wonders what it's like to be hunted.

Agreed. There's definitely a difference between watching a documentary of Lions stalking Zebras on the African plains...or some (potentially) sadistic sociopath taking enjoyment of watching a fish bite another in half at his own hands. IMO, something is mentally wrong with you if you take enjoyment from the pain of ANY animal...even bugs. Experienced and responsible hunters and fisherman at least make efforts. A friend of mine is an avid deer hunter...and he said one of the worst experiences of his life was shooting a deer uncleanly...following a blood trail for miles and never finding it. He said it laid very heavy on his heart to cause suffering with no ends, justification or cause in that situation.

 

[adeebm]

I think the issue is when people use this as a form of entertainment. A part of me finds a predator stalking its prey a riveting experience, but another part wonders what it's like to be hunted.

True, but is that any different then say, watching animals get hunted on Discovery Channel? Or the "human attacks" shows? People will find all sorts of things entertaining...

--Adeeb

 

[jetajockey]

True, but is that any different then say, watching animals get hunted on Discovery Channel? Or the "human attacks" shows? People will find all sorts of things entertaining...

--Adeeb

That's what makes it such a difficult topic, I think we (as a society) are geared towards watching stuff like this for entertainment. It's not like its a new thing, I mean there are plenty of examples in history of people being entertained by it. Look at bullfighting, or even going further back, the roman coloseum.

 

[absolutangel04]

Most of what I feel has already been said somewhere. I personally do not hunt or fish, but people that do are a big reason that we have been able to preserve nature. Most hunters I know are very responsible and well-informed about the animals.
The fish in our aquariums are our responsibility. They cannot just swim away and go about their lives. We as humans need social activities and things to bond to. My fish give me joy, and I give them the best life possible in return.

 

[bruinsbro1997]

That's what makes it such a difficult topic, I think we (as a society) are geared towards watching stuff like this for entertainment. It's not like its a new thing, I mean there are plenty of examples in history of people being entertained by it. Look at bullfighting, or even going further back, the roman coloseum.

The problem is that it's instinct. Just like fish, no matter how much we try to domesticate ourselves we are still the same animals we were way back around 10,000 years ago. It's genetically (so to speak) natural for us to see things kill other things because then it's easier for us to take. So while most people think that it's evil to watch this, the truth is it's a primoridal dominance inside of us that no matter how many years of domestication you can't get rid of. Same goes for fish. No matter how much you domesticate them you can't get rid of their natural instincts, which is where newbies who have cycled and everything go wrong with stocking African cichlids with neon tetras (I've seen this more than once).

 

[adeebm]

The problem is that it's instinct. Just like fish, no matter how much we try to domesticate ourselves we are still the same animals we were way back around 10,000 years ago. It's genetically (so to speak) natural for us to see things kill other things because then it's easier for us to take. So while most people think that it's evil to watch this, the truth is it's a primoridal dominance inside of us that no matter how many years of domestication you can't get rid of. Same goes for fish. No matter how much you domesticate them you can't get rid of their natural instincts, which is where newbies who have cycled and everything go wrong with stocking African cichlids with neon tetras (I've seen this more than once).

That's an interesting idea. I would say the "killing" instinct exists in humans, or most of us. However, that's not to say that we can't suppress it. It's our ability to think and our free will that defines us. One can choose to not kill, or enjoy the pain of others. It's why most of us fishkeepers are appalled by animal cruelty. Those of us who don't choose to ignore our instincts are the ones putting fish in keychains, or breeding them to fight, or posting youtube videos of them killing each other.

--Adeeb

 

[bruinsbro1997]

That's an interesting idea. I would say the "killing" instinct exists in humans, or most of us. However, that's not to say that we can't suppress it. It's our ability to think and our free will that defines us. One can choose to not kill, or enjoy the pain of others. It's why most of us fishkeepers are appalled by animal cruelty. Those of us who don't choose to ignore our instincts are the ones putting fish in keychains, or breeding them to fight, or posting youtube videos of them killing each other.

--Adeeb

Highly valid point. It all depends on whether you choose to use your ability to enjoy pain and killing of animals. It comes out from time to time in people. Though I hate to admit I sometimes enjoy watching things suffer, and that is what makes us who we are. No human being is the perfect saint-like angel lots of us make ourselves out to be. We just have to accept the fact that savagery is in us and we can choose to keep fish ethically or not. The same goes for all other animals and how we treat people.

 

[Maya]

I disagree. I personally don't like to watch anything suffer. I don't believe we all possess that desire for savagery. My dad butchers our pigs and we never cause needless suffering. Death is quick and as painless as possible. None of us "enjoy" it, but it is what it is. Death is a natural part of life but I don't find violence at all natural. I personally do not even watch the evening news or a lot of films because I am appalled at the attention given to violence. I find that it disturbs me spiritually so I avoid. I don't pretend to be angelic or place myself on any pedestal but I also can't agree that I enjoy violence. I think that animalistic behavior is best left to animals. We cannot claim "superiority and higher intelligence" when it suits us and then say that we cannot resist "primitive instinct" when that suits our mood later. Humankinds ability to think beyond our animalistic nature to be able to think philosophically does rather set us apart and I firmly believe that if I acknowledge that I know better, it is my responsibility to do better. It basically boils down to respect for all life. I give my plants the same care as my pets. All receive the respectful and nurturing attention that they deserve and that I am capable of providing.

 

[eco23]

I disagree. I personally don't like to watch anything suffer. I don't believe we all possess that desire for savagery.

There's always exceptions to every rule. I'm about as anti-cruelty as they come...but I think almost all of us have a touch of a sadistic side. This will be the most extreme example (so I ask forgiveness)...but when the Navy Seals plugged Bin Laden...I don't think many of us would take offense if they had tapped home once...and let him sit there for a while having a "conversation" with him before finishing things off.

Again, an extreme example, but even for me who instead of squishing bugs picks them up in a tissue and places them back outside...there's exceptions and a bit of a dark side to almost all of us.

I believe there's also a difference between being enthralled and awed by watching super predators in their natural environment (I'll be watching Shark Week)...but when animals are removed from their natural environment and humans are directly responsible for the outcome...there's definitely a line drawn there IMO.

 

[HUKIT]

I disagree. I personally don't like to watch anything suffer. I don't believe we all possess that desire for savagery..

I couldn't agree more, some of things I've done when stationed overseas were certainly tough mentally but there were people that simply could not perform their duties no matter what the circumstances or consequences were(I won't get into details and I'll leave it at that) even when their and other lives we are risk.

 

[TheCrazyFishLady]

This thread definitely got more interesting. I agree with Hukit and eco23. I think that the animal side of us is a very secretive thing for most of the human population. I can't eat meat off of a bone or squish a fly. I can't go near any of my fish when they die (have to call someone to help me, aka my boyfriend). I will swirve off of the road to not kill any animals that happen in front of my car. But, an uber gore-fest blood everywhere new horror movie just came out? I'm all over that. Anything banned in fifteen countries? I'll dig for months trying to find it to watch. It's very selective and probably most people don't realize it, but no matter how much we have evolved outside of our primitive ancestors, we still are just animals. How else could we still have murderers and rapists?

 

[Tiburon]

In my Opinion!

Good or Evil.... Right or Wrong.... Basically comes down too Choices

Command
Delegated
Avoided
No Brainer

throw some feeder's into your tank for whatever reason. The Fish
are going too do what's in there Nature. Just like People!!

 

[bruinsbro1997]

throw some feeder's into your tank for whatever reason. The Fish
are going too do what's in there Nature. Just like People!!

I disagree with that. Some people simply throw in the feeders for entertainment. Whenever there are customers around the LFS around here likes to throw some small goldfish in the oscar display just to have the people watch and they like it, which motivates them to buy an oscar themselves.

I believe feeders aren't very humane...it seems you're not doing the best for both the prey and predator. The prey is probably sick and lethargic from poor housing conditioins unless you raise them yourself. The predator will eat this and in turn will get the disease. It's like giving someone moldy sushi. They'll get sick and you're putting fish in pain. It seems more cruel than natural.

edit: Also wanted to add that sometimes feeders isn't always a good thing. Feeding feeders to arowanas all the time can possibly give them a condition called drop eye from all that protien and fat, and as they say, the damage is done.

 

[Maya]

I'm certainly not saying that there aren't moments when violent act is necessary. I applaud those people who can do what it takes when it is necessary. I would never be cut out for military duty. I do not have the mental position that it requires. I was merely pointing out that it isn't part of every psyche. My husband and I are exact opposites in this regard. He is a firefighter who is a member of a PD swat team and loves guns and martial arts. He knows that there are things about his job he should never ever tell me. I highly respect him for his ability to reason what he believes is right and necessary and then act on it. I just simply cannot. For example, I go with him to shoot his guns... I prefer to read books or just watch while he fires his weapons. I very rarely ever participate because weapons make me anxious. Neither of us judge the other, because neither of us are wrong. Just completely different.

But I also don't believe that senseless cruelty should be excused by "we can't help our animal instincts". Even though my husband doesn't shy away from violence, he is never cruel. I believe most people when hunting and fishing attempt to make it as painless as possible. They take the time to track their kills and try to gently take the hooks out of fish they intend to throw back. They are respectful of the sanctity of life. These are the folks who take conscientious care of their pets and the natural world around them. The folks who don't, don't do so out of a predatory animal drive. They do so out of disrespect and laziness.

 

[roundar]

I thought long and hard about this thread. I wanted to write a long response coming from several angles. Instead, I'll offer a succinct response that most accurately sums up my thoughts on the thread so far. It's a quote from a John Burdett book(The quote is play on a line from a T.S. Elliots poem.):

"Decent people cannot stand very much reality."

 

[Maya]

"Decent people cannot stand very much reality."

I couldn't agree with you more. Very eloquent.

 

[chagoi]

Some times you just have to. At one point in my life I din't even kill a bug for about 30 years. At one time I had 26 tanks. Now ill kill things but don't like it. Now I have one tank with a fry (baby in the overflow). I don't want another tank. I don't likeit but what can I do. The baby will die some times you just have to.