Fishless cycle - ammonia not dropping

[gtincubus]

Hello all! I'm tired of banging my head against a wall over this fishless cycle so I thought maybe I could ask for some advice here.

I have a 29 gallon tank with an Aquaclear 50 running on high, water temp 80 degrees. I've used sand as a substrate and have a large piece of driftwood and some rocks (slate) as the only decorations - I washed the driftwood and rocks properly. I dosed the tank up to 4ppm ammonia about 4 weeks ago using Ace Janitorial Strength ammonia (no surfactants) and it has yet to drop. At all. I have not added any additional ammonia since the initial dose.

Some further details...I've been testing every 12 hours with no change this entire time. After a couple weeks went by I added Tetra Safe Start with no changes to ammonia/nitrites/nitrates. Another week went by and I added an active filter sponge from Angelsplus (I cut a chunk of the sponge out to replace the one that came with my aquaclear, and I stuck the rest on a wall of the tank with a magnet but I don't have air running through it or anything). A day after I added this, my nitrites and nitrates were up (still no change in the ammonia) and continued to rise for a couple days before falling back to 0 for nitrites and 10-20 nitrates. Still no change in the ammonia.

So last night I did a 50% water change (using Seachem Prime) and verified that the ammonia was at 2ppm but I'm just not sure what further to do...was really hoping to have the tank cycled by Christmas so I could at least partially stock it (was supposed to be Santa's present for my kid) but it's looking like that might not happen. Any suggestions?

Oh, and a side note, I did do a control test on my test kit with my faucet water for the ammonia and nitrites...both read as 0. I'm using the API Master Kit and it is not expired.

Summary:
29 gallon tank
Aquaclear 50 w/ active filter sponge
Sand/driftwood/rocks for decoration (and the rest of the active filter sponge)
Currently between 1 and 2ppm ammonia, 0 nitrites, 10-20 nitrates
No drop in ammonia for FOUR WEEKS (except for possibly a small drop from last night to this afternoon).

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to make sure I got everything in up front that might help get some answers. Thanks!

 

[shellieca]

Have you checked your Ph? If the Ph is too low it can cause problems with the cycle.

 

[gtincubus]

Ack, of course I missed something. pH has remained stable at 8.0 throughout the cycle to date.

 

[shellieca]

Well, that shot my theory! Hmmm, I'm at a loss. I'm sure it happens but is rare for it to take so long to show any movement. Sorry I can't offer more, hopefully someone with more experience will chime in to this.

 

[librarygirl]

Hm, odd. Is the surface being agitated, either from splashing from the filter or an air stone? Bacteria need oxygen.

I don't know that the sponge filter just sitting in the tank would do much; running an air pump to it might have been better to circulate the water through the filter.

The water change was a good idea; it'll replenish some nutrients and buffers in the water.

Is the heater adjustable? Can you raise it to about 86? Bacteria like higher temps.

Is there a chance you overdosed ammonia at the beginning? High levels of ammonia would have prevented the bacteria from forming.

I'd try getting some airline tubing and an air pump and actually run the sponge filter if you can (this will add more oxygen to the tank too). Bump up the heat to 86 if you can as well. Let's see if anything changes in a few days after doing this.

 

[summercgreen]

You may want to try "prime". It detoxifies nitrates, nitrites and ammonia. I'm not too sure if you want to do this during a cycle, someone might have more advise on this, but at least it will drop your ammonia.

 

[librarygirl]

You may want to try "prime". It detoxifies nitrates, nitrites and ammonia. I'm not too sure if you want to do this during a cycle, someone might have more advise on this, but at least it will drop your ammonia.

The poster said he/she is using Prime. FYI, Prime won't drop ammonia. It'll temporary detoxify it so it isn't harmful to fish (up to 1 ppms) but still viable for the bacteria. It won't do anything to drop the ammonia levels.

 

[gtincubus]

Surface is being agitated pretty well by the filter, there's enough of a drop. I had the temp at 80 but bumped it up per your suggestion. The ammonia I'm using is 10% and my math worked out to that 1ml is roughly equivalent to 1ppm in my 29g tank (please,if my math is wrong on that, let me know). I actually added closer to 3.5 the couple times I've added it though (per my original post) to be safe.

My LFS suggested that I use some live (refrigerated) bacteria so Friday night I did a 90% water change, added a little more sand because my substrate wasn't quite deep enough for the plants I eventually intend to add, took the if sponge filter out of the tank (a piece of it is still in my aquaclear filter), refilled and added prime, added 3ml of the ammonia, and added the bacteria to the filter. Saturday morning I had .25 nitrites and between 2 and 4 ammonia, Saturday evening I had 0 nitrites and the same ammonia, this mornings had 0 nitrites and the same ammonia.

Sigh.

 

[librarygirl]

3-4 ml is good, that'll get you to 3-4 ppms of ammonia.

The "live" bacteria in a bottle is hit and miss. It often doesn't work as it's hard to keep bacteria viable in a bottle plus most of it is recommended to be used with fish; there's been some debate that using it with fishless cycles won't work as the amount of ammonia is too high. And some of the bacteria in those bottled products aren't the right kind.

When you refill the tank, do you add Prime before you add the water or while you're adding it or after? Is your filter on or off?

How much Prime are you adding? I'm wondering if your tap water has higher levels or chlorine or chloramines than a normal dose or Prime can detoxify. Can you get a water report? Also, are you using tap water or are you on a well or using something else (RO water, spring water, etc)?

 

[gtincubus]

I'm adding prime as I fill the tank, about half a capful. My filter is off when I fill since I have a tall tank so the intake is about halfway up it. I do make sure to turn the filter on as soon as the fill is done though and it is always on. I wait to add ammonia until the filter is on. And I'm just using tap water. It looks like my local water report isn't available online...

 

[librarygirl]

The only thing I can think of is if somehow the Prime is either being underdosed (1 capful treats 55 gals, so a half cap is about 27 gals, so maybe there's a chance not all of the water is being detoxified properly) or your water has more chlorines or chloramines than the normal dose can handle. Maybe try adding a full capful and see if that does anything to change the levels. Other than that I'm stumped. I've seen this before in my own cycle actually; I tried fishless cycling for 6 months and ammonia dropped intermittently and I never saw nitrite. I tried a myriad of things (changing temp, seeded filters, various dechlorinators, tank tear down and rebuild etc) all to no avail. Finally the only thing i hadn't tried changing was my source water so I switched from tap to spring, added a new seeded filter and the tank fully cycled in 3 weeks. I'm back to using tap water now and my tanks are great. Now I'm not saying you'll need to do anything as drastic (yet ) but the water itself is something we'll need to keep in mind if nothing else works.

While I'm thinking of various things, what's in your filter? What type of media? Do you have any ammonia removers or anything in it? Did you clean the tank with anything prior to setting it up, like bleach maybe? Has the filter media been changed or rinsed in tap water or anything like that?

 

[phishfriend]

That angle plus filter needs to have an air line running it to be affective. I would ask/beg your LFS for some seed gravel or filter medium. That may help

 

[jlk]

The only thing I can think of is if somehow the Prime is either being underdosed (1 capful treats 55 gals, so a half cap is about 27 gals, so maybe there's a chance not all of the water is being detoxified properly) or your water has more chlorines or chloramines than the normal dose can handle. Maybe try adding a full capful and see if that does anything to change the levels. Other than that I'm stumped. I've seen this before in my own cycle actually; I tried fishless cycling for 6 months and ammonia dropped intermittently and I never saw nitrite. I tried a myriad of things (changing temp, seeded filters, various dechlorinators, tank tear down and rebuild etc) all to no avail. Finally the only thing i hadn't tried changing was my source water so I switched from tap to spring, added a new seeded filter and the tank fully cycled in 3 weeks. I'm back to using tap water now and my tanks are great. Now I'm not saying you'll need to do anything as drastic (yet ) but the water itself is something we'll need to keep in mind if nothing else works.

While I'm thinking of various things, what's in your filter? What type of media? Do you have any ammonia removers or anything in it? Did you clean the tank with anything prior to setting it up, like bleach maybe? Has the filter media been changed or rinsed in tap water or anything like that?

+1
I would suggest the same in respect to your water that you may possibly have higher than normal amounts of chlorine/chloramine in your tap. I went through something similar with a fish-in cycle and couldnt figure out why the tank would not cycle after 3-4mths. Turns out theres a large amount of disinfectant in my tap. Once I started doubledosing conditioner, the tank cycled. You can contact your water supplier and find out what/how much they are using and if theres anything unusual with how they process the water. I would ask them for a copy of the most recent water report as well.

Another thing that may be worth trying is adding a product for RO water such as Seachems Replenish or RoRight. Its possible that your water may be lacking in some vital mineral necessary for your bacteria to grow and process ammonia.

As a last resort, you may want to consider Librarygirl's route for cycling and switch to spring or ro water until your tank cycles then gradually switch back to tap. From what you have described (seeing bit nitrite/nitrate after adding AP filter & bacteria product), it sounds like either something is killing off the bacteria such as disinfectant or excess of heavy metals or theres something missing that is preventing the bacteria from flourishing so they die off.

Another idea is theres something physically in your tank killing them off (ie, the tank or decor was cleaned with a product like limeaway or CLR and residue remains). Was this a used tank or a new tank? Maybe the prior owner used it for something other than fish or cleaned it with something harsh? I am just thinking of possibilities here beyond an issue with your water itself (which sounds like the most likely culprit). If the tank is not a possible issue, then finding out some more info about your water source seems to be the next logical step.

 

[gtincubus]

My parents owned this tank before me with some newts and some fish in it. It's been sitting in their garage for about 6 months empty since they retired...they said they never cleaned it with any chemicals, and I just wiped it down when I got it and rinsed it with some water before filling. Doubtful it's the tank, it sounds more like there's an issue going on with the water.

So while I'm waiting for a water report, the consensus is that I should do a full capful (or more?) of Prime and also add some Seachem Replenish to the water? Do I need to do another water change or can I just add these conditioners in as is? And how often should I dose? To date, I've just added the Prime at the time of water change...should I be doing it more often?

I did rinse the filter media in tap water, could that be causing problems? I'm using an aquaclear, so there's a sponge layer, an activated carbon layer, and a 'Biomax' layer which is where the bacteria should be growing. I've changed the sponge, which is supposed to be changed monthly, and added a chunk of the angelsplus sponge to it in place of the 'official' replacement sponge.

Thanks for the suggestions so far, everyone, hopefully improving the water quality is the answer.

 

[jlk]

Only rinse your filter media in old (treated) tank water- rinsing it in tap will kill off any good bacteria your trying to grow. Also, never replace filter media unless its literally falling apart. Even then, just stuff some new media in with the old stuff for 3-4wks before removing the old stuff. These two issues may alone be the reason for your tank not cycling. I would do a 50% water change, double dose prime to the size of your tank (dose BEFORE refilling), add the Ro product for the size of your tank and make sure theres only @2ppm of ammonia. Wait @5-10mins AFTER refilling your tank before turning on the filters to make sure the products are evenly distributed through your tank. If you want to add more of a bottled bacteria product, do so after your tank has been running for @15mins. Then, lets see what happens!

 

[gtincubus]

jlk...thanks for the plan, I'll give it a go tonight and report back! Wish me luck!

Oh, also, I only ever rinsed the media before I put it in the tank in the first place. I didn't rinse the angelsplus filter at all. So the replacement schedule that the filter manufacturer recommends is a scam for more money via replacement parts?

 

[jlk]

Good luck! Dont expect a miracle overnight (we dont know everything here yet) but hopefully, there will be something over the upcoming days! And, yes, the manufacturers want your money- logically, there is zero sense in throwing away all of the good bacteria your worked so hard to grow and subsequently putting your tank back into a cycle.

 

[gtincubus]

LFS didn't have any replenish or roright and sold me some seachem neutral regulator instead...thoughts?

 

[gtincubus]

Says it removes chlorine but it also binds ammonia, which I would think would be counterproductive when trying to cycle...

 

[rylake]

Just my two cents, but pick up a Seachem "Ammonia Alert" to stick inside your tank. I have found them to be really accurate and they save you the disappointment of testing constantly for ammonia every 12 hours. Bump that temperature up to 85 or so and make sure that your biological media (bioballs, ceramic rings etc) is getting a good flow over it. It really is just a waiting game until the ammonia drops, but you will build a better filter by have it crush 4ppm than having a smaller amount dosed. Make sure that the tank is getting enough oxygen and the filter as well (I leave the lids off anyways).

Good luck, cycling really is a test of patience.