Gonna try 1 last time...

[Fishy monkey]

Cycling a tank seems so easy when you read how to do it online, even explaining it to a novice makes it seem easy. I've done 3 fish in cycles with no problems and all completed within the 8 weeks its supposed to take.

Why then, am I having so many problems cycling a 60litre tank? I've been trying since September, done fishless with food til it stalled, done fishless with ammonia til high nitrItes and dropping pH slowed the cycle right down, and most recently went fish in til I lost all the fish just a few days ago. Cause of death undetermined but the last one developed white spot the day before it died. I didn't see white spot on the others so that may have been a secondary infection.

Anyway I'm gonna have to empty the tank and dry it out in case it was a virus, which means losing all my plants too I think, unless I can just put them in a bucket?

I do have another tank that's been set up since September, a 165litre with 7 congo tetras, a bn pleco and 2 kribs in it. I want to try and use the filter media from that tank to cycle this one, but would like advice on how to do it properly, since it runs a wet/dry filter and the 60litre is just a normal stick on the back filter.

TLDR:
1- can I save my plants by just putting them in a bucket till the tank dries out?

2- Is there any chance the plants will contaminate the new tank water with whatever virus killed all the fish (possibly a stupid question but checking all bases here)?

3- how do I use the filter media from the big tank most effectively?

4- will cycling it this way make it ready for a dwarf puffer (high bioload) straight away, or should I use ammonia for a while afterwards?

As the title said this is my last attempt with this tank. If it doesn't work I'm probably gonna end up just smashing the thing out of sheer frustration so will appreciate any and all input here.

Edit- it has a sand substrate, do I need to get rid of that or can I use it when I set it up again?

 

[spiketooth]

How many plants do you have in the tank?

 

[Fishy monkey]

Either blyxa japonica or c helferi (1 established and another small one from a cutting)
Java moss (bought about a week ago so not established yet)
Water sprite
Corkscrew val
Anacharis (about 5 stems of that)

 

[spiketooth]

Research into a silent cycle, witha few more plants it might work

 

[Fishy monkey]

Looked at a few pages about it, it seems a bit hit and miss, and some pages suggest it only works for experienced plant aquarists. I've only had plants about 6 weeks and as I said, this is the last time I'm gonna try and cycle this tank. If it fails its getting dumped so I want a method that's more likely to work than not.

Thanks though.

 

[Rivercats]

Chances are it's not a virus but if it's white spot you need to not put any livestock in the tank for over 30 days if memory serves me. Without a host for that period of time the ick will die out. Or you can increase your heat for a couple weeks up to 84 which also aids in cycling. I personally would not tear down the tank or remove the plants. Some plants my not appreciate the heat but should bounce back. Also if you have a small cycled tank take some of it's seeded filter media and add it to the tank that is having cycling issues.

I'd do the ammonia BUT watch your ph, daily if needed, and you can do water changes to readd buffer to the tank and raise the ph back up or if that won't work add some crushed coral to a media bag and either put it in the filter or hang it under the filter outflow. But again keep very close eye on your ph and don't add too much CC at a time. This is a last resort if you can't keep your ph up with WC's.

 

[spiketooth]

Ich can not live without a host for more then 2-4 days with normal temp, colder temp they can live longer.

 

[Rivercats]

Actually there are different strains of ich and some newer ones that have been found are known to be more heat tolerant and this is a subject that is becoming more debateable. This has always been one of my favorite ich articles... Ich | The Skeptical Aquarist

Turning up the heat and finishing the cycle with ammonia will ensure your tank is ich free. Personally I wouldn't trust that all ich would be gone from a tank in 2 or 3 days without fish being present since there are different stages of ich.

 

[Fishy monkey]

Thanks Rivercats, the last thing I wanted to do was strip it all down and start again. I'm still a little sceptical that I could have missed ich on them all until there was just 1 left but in the interests of keeping my sanity I'll bow to your superior knowledge!

So to use my established filter media do I just squeeze the water out of the sponge into the tank? I know that's what it says on all the web pages I've looked at, it just seems too simple to be true!

 

[Rivercats]

Many times fish have ich in the gills, which you can't see, and the only indication is to see them occassionally flashing. Often by the time you see an actual ich spot the fish are too infected in the gills and expire. I actually had that happen once. I would actually see an occassional fish flash but it wasn't continual and since there are alot of reason that can make a fish flash I didn't think much about it since it wasn't continual. Finally a couple died and at right about the same time a couple other fish had a couple spots on them. Also another reason could be that since your tank wasn't cycled they died due to ammonia or nitrite poisoning.

IMO you should take an actual piece off the established filter media and put it in the new filter your trying to seed. I don't think much of squeezing old media in the water.

 

[Fishy monkey]

That makes me feel better, the only other time I've had an ich outbreak I was able to treat without losing any fish. I did test the water (api liquid tests) and ammonia and nitrItes were at 0, nitrAtes at 10. When I first noticed the fish were suffering I thought it was lack of oxygen so wasted time with an airstone :-(

 

[Fishperson]

Steps for success:
1. Do a fishless cycle without plants using pure ammonia, with no perfume and no surfactant.
2. Make a thread about it.
3. Test every day.
4. Report your results of each test.
5. Get help from people on here.
6. Be happy because you tank cycled.
This is exactly what I did and my 20H cycled in 7 weeks, even though it stalled in the beginning because of a glitchy heater, and stalled in the end because of nitrites that were so high they turned gray. No joke. I did a 70% water change and it looked about 10-15 ppm. Trust me, do this, add plants later, and it will work for you.

 

[Fishy monkey]

Thanks fishperson, I did post about my previous cycles but they still failed, in the fishless with ammonia I ended up with crushed coral in a stocking about the size of my fist and the pH still crashed. All the fish in cycles I've done have been uneventful and worked with no problems, but me and fishless don't seem to get on.

Hopefully with the addition of established filter media I'll be able to save this cycle. I think everyone will agree that 6 months to cycle a tank is a stupid amount of time. Especially when I've got my heart set on a dwarf puffer and am having to actually be patient about getting one. I'm a Taurus, I don't do patience!

 

[PattyCakes81]

Thanks fishperson, I did post about my previous cycles but they still failed, in the fishless with ammonia I ended up with crushed coral in a stocking about the size of my fist and the pH still crashed. All the fish in cycles I've done have been uneventful and worked with no problems, but me and fishless don't seem to get on.

Hopefully with the addition of established filter media I'll be able to save this cycle. I think everyone will agree that 6 months to cycle a tank is a stupid amount of time. Especially when I've got my heart set on a dwarf puffer and am having to actually be patient about getting one. I'm a Taurus, I don't do patience!

I completely get you on the Taurus thing. I have little patience too. But I did do a fishless cycle with ammonia and found out I duo have some patience after all.
I started my tank on January 16 and I already am almost fully stock on my 20H gal tank.
This is the link to the thread of my journey
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/20-gallon-low-light-tank-build-journal-242839.html
Don't give up on the plants. If you have enough they soak up nitrates like a sponge!

 

[Fishperson]

What they said ^^^
Do that or what I said (the only difference is wether or not to add plants) and you will be fine. Just make sure you make a thread about it and get advice from people on here.

 

[Rivercats]

Since the tank is planted leave it. I actually did a silent cycle with plants in my 220g. Plants, the proper ones such as water sprite, wisteria, fast growing stem plants, and floaters, are nutrient sponges that absorb ammonia and nitrates from the water. Personally I prefer cycling with plants in.

 

[Fishy monkey]

Well so far things are moving ok, dosing ammonia to 2ppm for now, and that's converting in 36 hours. When that converts in 24 hours over a few days I'll increase the dosage. PH is holding at 7.6 but once that starts to drop I'll do a water change. I turned the temp up to 84 last night. Please keep your fingers crossed for me everyone!

 

[spiketooth]

Dont forget to check your KH as that can effect your PH.

 

[Fishperson]

What are your params right now? I didn't know that you already had plants in here. Are there any fish in there? (I don't think so, but I am just checking).

 

[Fishy monkey]

24 hours after dosing to 2ppm-

Ammonia 0.25
NitrItes 5.0 (possibly more)
NitrAtes between 80-160 (closer to 160)
PH- between 7.2-7.6
Kh- 60ppm <--- this is from the tank
Tap kh 70ppm <-- not gassed out, leaving some in a glass to test tomorrow.

I think I'll dose to 2ppm again then tomorrow do a water change to bring the trites down. Not sure what to do about the kh, I don't really want to put baking powder in the tank!