Has anyone done a fishless cycle starting with distilled water?

[threnjen]

And no pre-seeded filter media.

So we are talking about a virgin, untouched, sterile environment.

What would happen? Has anyone tried it?

 

[PB_Smith]

My guess is that it may begin to colonize bacteria and cycling, but once it gets going I fear a ph crash would bring it to a halt as distilled water will probably have a ph of 7 or lower to start with. I imagine it could get down to maybe 6 or lower during a cycle if it started.


and I doubt it would be good for any livestock you were to put in there.

 

[Mattfinn]

I have yes... Only cause my tap water is not great at all and was stocking the tank with rams...

I was using fish flakes as an ammonia source. I found that I wasn't getting very far with cycling after two weeks and being impatient I went and got some seeded media.

I don't know about other peoples experiences but once I got the tank "cycled" I tested it for a month after and then my kit ran out and I haven't done an ammonia, nitrite or nitrate test since. Now a year later am using part tap part distilled because it's a bit more beneficial for my plants and buffering co2.

I know I'm probably not 100% correct with anything I've said but it's worked and I haven't had a major problem that is related to ammonia and nitrite poisoning, only ich which I think most people go through once in their time as fishkeepers.


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[threnjen]

My guess is that it may begin to colonize bacteria and cycling, but once it gets going I fear a ph crash would bring it to a halt as distilled water will probably have a ph of 7 or lower to start with. I imagine it could get down to maybe 6 or lower during a cycle if it started.


and I doubt it would be good for any livestock you were to put in there.

Sorry, I should have been clear that my interest is purely scientific. I wouldn't be preparing it for fish. I'm visualizing the perfect initial additives (all of which I have) to carry it through the cycle without a pH crash. I've just never done one with distilled water before. I'm not sure what the pH of distilled water is to begin with - it's really low, which wouldn't be terribly conducive to the nitrification process.

Mostly I'm curious if anyone has ever proven conclusively that the nitrifying bacteria that colonizes our filter comes from the air, or is trace leftover bacteria in the tap water. So mostly I wonder if anything would happen at all in a sterile environment like distilled water, meaning it really does come out of the air.

 

[PB_Smith]

Sorry, I should have been clear that my interest is purely scientific. I wouldn't be preparing it for fish. I'm visualizing the perfect initial additives (all of which I have) to carry it through the cycle without a pH crash. I've just never done one with distilled water before. I'm not sure what the pH of distilled water is to begin with - it's really low, which wouldn't be terribly conducive to the nitrification process.

Mostly I'm curious if anyone has ever proven conclusively that the nitrifying bacteria that colonizes our filter comes from the air, or is trace leftover bacteria in the tap water. So mostly I wonder if anything would happen at all in a sterile environment like distilled water, meaning it really does come out of the air.

air, our hands, dust, who knows.
considering I'm one of the evil ones who does fish-in cycling and the weirdo that used urine to cycle a sumps worth of bio-media, what do I know.

urine works phenomenally well by the way, much better than pure ammonia, probably because urine isn't ammonia, but gets broken down to ammonia.
I have always wondered if there was something to that...but this is your hypothetical experiment thread, so....


I think that eventually the water/substrate would become "alive" but it probably would be a long, slow process and again, the issue of ph would be of concern.

You could probably do the same with a quality bottled water that has supposedly been filtered, reverse osmosis and uv sterilized.
Then the mineral content of the water and ph would not be an issue to circumvent, but ideally the water would be "pure" and free of any life.

 

[PB_Smith]

I have yes... Only cause my tap water is not great at all and was stocking the tank with rams...

I was using fish flakes as an ammonia source. I found that I wasn't getting very far with cycling after two weeks and being impatient I went and got some seeded media.

I don't know about other peoples experiences but once I got the tank "cycled" I tested it for a month after and then my kit ran out and I haven't done an ammonia, nitrite or nitrate test since. Now a year later am using part tap part distilled because it's a bit more beneficial for my plants and buffering co2.

I know I'm probably not 100% correct with anything I've said but it's worked and I haven't had a major problem that is related to ammonia and nitrite poisoning, only ich which I think most people go through once in their time as fishkeepers.


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are you sure it's distilled water and not bottled drinking water?
distilled water costs more $$$, is devoid of any mineral content and has a very low ph, all those things would be a problem for cycling, well not the $$$ part....LOL

distilled water is meant to be used in machinery and stuff where you don't want any mineral deposits to build up and it is not really good to drink nor good for critters to live in.
if you are mixing distilled and tap that would explain why you haven't had any major issues yet.

 

[sinibotia]

I've thought about this, and I've filed it away in the long, long list of things I'd like to research. My professor might let me do this as an independent study, after I do this discus thing and a study on whether or nat dwarf puffers are toxic....

 

[jlk]

Interesting idea to study but there are so many factors that are beyond your control that it would nullify any possible results.

For example, how would you be able to keep a sterile tank, equipment, water, environment and air? Distilled water is not necessary 'sterile' water either. It 'may' be pure H2O (you would need to prove its purity first) in respect to ingredients but that does not equate to sterile. I like to believe it may be but I am also realistic. A completely sterile setup (including air) would be necessary as a control, IMO.

Then, I am not quite sure how you would prove where bacteria came from using only distilled water. Your hands? Nonsterile tank, equipment, testing methods, the distilled water itself? If you could be 100% positive that nothing contaminated ever at any point accessed any aspect of the tank and the tank cycled, then perhaps you could prove validity in bacteria entering from the air.

However, this would be complicated by the fact that nitrogen bacteria require more than just pure H2O to grow, thrive and reproduce. Which once again returns to the contamination factors and how they function in this equation. Makes things infinitely more complicated.

Realistically, in a perfectly sterile environment, bacteria does not grow or exist but we live in a very unsterile world. So, I am curious how you plan on ruling out the millions of contamination factors that exist.

A consideration that may help give a bit of weight to this would be to run microscopics on the various bacteria that your tank(s) harbor and then compare these to your tap water vs a 'sterile' tank over a period of time to see what may be present now, a day from now, a week from now, a month from now, etc, in each. A true, sterile control would not be possible and it would be difficult to eliminate contamination factors in potential setups (which may produce some scary results) but perhaps it may give some credence to the line of thought your trying to figure out.

Just some considerations I thought I would throw out there! I would honestly need to think about this some more but I think using a microscope is going to be the most beneficial in seeking any answers here. Hope this makes some sense!


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[threnjen]

@PB_Smith I would expect urine to make a great cycling source. You're certainly not the first person I have heard to use it.

All great considerations, jlk! I think you're absolutely correct that outside of working in a clean room, it would really be impossible to declare anything I use "sterile" and therefore render any real scientific results null and void.

I do have a microscope but... I'm pretty bad at using it. I've used it to try and take gram-negative bacteria samples but I lack the skills (or more likely, the knowledge and experience) to adequately understand my "findings".

Would I be able to get any adequate information though just mounting an initial sample of my tap water, my tank water (from my 4 different tanks), and the distilled water at these intervals? Possibly this could still result in some information even if it's imperfect.

Basically what I would like to know is, if I use the following:
* distilled water (basically something that deliberately has nothing, a blank slate if you will)
* ammonia
* nitrite (sodium nitrite in powder form)
* sodium bicarbonate (kH buffer to prevent the ph crash)
* phosphorus (powdered mono potassium phosphate)

If we have the proper combination of these elements in a (mostly) sterile virgin tank, will it cycle successfully untouched?
Better yet, will it cycle in half the time because it starts with nitrites?
Are these elements sufficient to cycle a tank - i.e. are they all that is required? Or are some level of trace minerals required?

Luckily my findings don't need to qualify for publication They only need to be interesting to me. But it doesn't matter I guess because for now I am committed to being Caliban's assistant on an experiment that he wants to run, and I don't have anywhere to run this. I want to file it away for a later though. Or someone else should do it and report about it

 

[Mebbid]

Culturing bacteria is fun, here is a primer on how to isolate it.

https://www.addgene.org/recipient-instructions/streak-plate/

Using a microscope for bacteria is a fairly pointless thing though, you arent really going to be able to tell much at all even with the proper stains.

 

[sinibotia]

Interesting idea to study but there are so many factors that are beyond your control that it would nullify any possible results.

For example, how would you be able to keep a sterile tank, equipment, water, environment and air? Distilled water is not necessary 'sterile' water either. It 'may' be pure H2O (you would need to prove its purity first) in respect to ingredients but that does not equate to sterile. I like to believe it may be but I am also realistic. A completely sterile setup (including air) would be necessary as a control, IMO.

Then, I am not quite sure how you would prove where bacteria came from using only distilled water. Your hands? Nonsterile tank, equipment, testing methods, the distilled water itself? If you could be 100% positive that nothing contaminated ever at any point accessed any aspect of the tank and the tank cycled, then perhaps you could prove validity in bacteria entering from the air.

However, this would be complicated by the fact that nitrogen bacteria require more than just pure H2O to grow, thrive and reproduce. Which once again returns to the contamination factors and how they function in this equation. Makes things infinitely more complicated.

Realistically, in a perfectly sterile environment, bacteria does not grow or exist but we live in a very unsterile world. So, I am curious how you plan on ruling out the millions of contamination factors that exist.

A consideration that may help give a bit of weight to this would be to run microscopics on the various bacteria that your tank(s) harbor and then compare these to your tap water vs a 'sterile' tank over a period of time to see what may be present now, a day from now, a week from now, a month from now, etc, in each. A true, sterile control would not be possible and it would be difficult to eliminate contamination factors in potential setups (which may produce some scary results) but perhaps it may give some credence to the line of thought your trying to figure out.

Just some considerations I thought I would throw out there! I would honestly need to think about this some more but I think using a microscope is going to be the most beneficial in seeking any answers here. Hope this makes some sense!


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With university access, I could probably actually make this work as an independent study. I have access to all kinds of university resources... I could just autoclave the entire setup actually, and start immediately with the sterile setup.

If you don't know what an autoclave is... it's like the child of a pressure cooker and a dishwasher. It's used for sterilizing everything.

 

[Mebbid]

With university access, I could probably actually make this work as an independent study. I have access to all kinds of university resources... I could just autoclave the entire setup actually, and start immediately with the sterile setup.

If you don't know what an autoclave is... it's like the child of a pressure cooker and a dishwasher. It's used for sterilizing everything.

Im not sure how much damage would be done to the seals of a tank with an autoclave though.

A bigbproblem however, is that bacteria is constantly raining down on all the surfaces sobit would quickly become contaminated.

 

[threnjen]

With university access, I could probably actually make this work as an independent study. I have access to all kinds of university resources... I could just autoclave the entire setup actually, and start immediately with the sterile setup.

If you don't know what an autoclave is... it's like the child of a pressure cooker and a dishwasher. It's used for sterilizing everything.

I like you and I'm jealous of your access to resources that I can only muse about. I wish I could go back to school!

Really I just figure if I can cycle a distilled water tank with minimal specific chemical additives, then we would have instructions to cycle absolutely anything. Hard water tanks always seem easier to cycle than soft water tanks, and distilled water should be the hardest

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[sinibotia]

I like you and I'm jealous of your access to resources that I can only muse about. I wish I could go back to school!

Really I just figure if I can cycle a distilled water tank with minimal specific chemical additives, then we would have instructions to cycle absolutely anything. Hard water tanks always seem easier to cycle than soft water tanks, and distilled water should be the hardest

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Marine science/aquaculture major swag

It helps that my academic advisor/boss (I work in his lab) is also an avid freshwater fishkeeper so any interesting projects that involve aquariums get a thumbs up- next spring I'm doing a project to see if dwarf puffers are in fact toxic. I'm about to go ask him about this project here for fall of 2016...

 

[Caliban07]

I like you and I'm jealous of your access to resources that I can only muse about. I wish I could go back to school!

Really I just figure if I can cycle a distilled water tank with minimal specific chemical additives, then we would have instructions to cycle absolutely anything. Hard water tanks always seem easier to cycle than soft water tanks, and distilled water should be the hardest

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You know thren, you don't really need a 'tank'. You could use a 1 litre container next to a fan in a warmish room with some large pebble gravel filled with distilled water. You could run a few tests to try to accurately dose your specified ammonia ppm target and just replace any evaporated water with distilled.

Edit: you are definitely going to need some macro and micro nutrients in order for the bacteria to grow and reproduce.


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[threnjen]

You know thren, you don't really need a 'tank'. You could use a 1 litre container next to a fan in a warmish room with some large pebble gravel filled with distilled water. You could run a few tests to try to accurately dose your specified ammonia ppm target and just replace any evaporated water with distilled.


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I still don't have somewhere to put it where it would be truly out of the way. I would just use a small plastic tub for any tests. I would have to put it out in the garage or something, and that is a pretty dirty environment, plus not very consistent temperature.
Maybe this is an indication that we have too much crap in our house
That room I used to use was perfect, no one went in there and I could do whatever I wanted! I don't have anywhere out of the way like that anymore!

 

[Caliban07]

I still don't have somewhere to put it where it would be truly out of the way. I would just use a small plastic tub for any tests. I would have to put it out in the garage or something, and that is a pretty dirty environment, plus not very consistent temperature.
Maybe this is an indication that we have too much crap in our house
That room I used to use was perfect, no one went in there and I could do whatever I wanted! I don't have anywhere out of the way like that anymore!

The garage seems feasible to me. If the end aim is to see if nitrification will occur in distilled water I don't think the controls need to be very tight at all. Distilled water + ammonia plus surface area + nutrients = nitrogen cycle


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[threnjen]

The garage seems feasible to me. If the end aim is to see if nitrification will occur in distilled water I don't think the controls need to be very tight at all. Distilled water + ammonia plus surface area + nutrients = nitrogen cycle


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But wouldn't you prefer I mirror your experiment? Or should we do two different things concurrently

http://www.aquariumadvice.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[threnjen]

I need to disinfect everything I want to use to make it "as sterile as possible" because most of it has had some sort of fish-related thing in it at some point. However, it has been dry for over a year. Is it safe enough to say that any relevant bacteria is no longer alive? What should I disinfect with that won't skew my results (for example I certainly am not going to bleach everything). Hydrogen peroxide?

 

[PB_Smith]

yes but I thought the original premise was to see if bacteria would "appear" if an all sterile environment was used as the starting point.
Now it sounds like it has shifted to testing if distilled water would work.


I see we need to develop a hypothetical construct and an operational definition for this experiment....