Help!! I just don't know what to do anymore!!

[fishyfan7]

Hi, I am new to this forum and need some major help! I have a 46 gallon bowfront Goldfish tank.....the tank is about 17 months old (the fish were in a smaller tank before that). Since about August 2004, I have been losing my fish one after another. Until then, I never had a problem...

Before I explain my situation, here are my params:

Size: 46 gallons
Fish: Goldfish.....the numbers have decreased (at most there were 5 at any given time)....3 were fancies and 2 were common feeders. I am down to 1 feeder
Filter: Double Bio-Wheel
Aeration: Double Air Pump with 2 air stones
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = (ranges from 5-10 PPM)
Ph: 7.4
Temp = 72 degrees F
Hardwater with dechlorinator
Cleaning: Gravel Vac and 25-30% water change weekly
I use aquarium salt

Here's the story....my first fish died really quickly...before I even knew anything was really wrong..he was a red and white fancy (about 3 years old)....now that I think back, he often ate bubbles but I didn't think much of it because he also swam throughout the tank...one day I noticed him sitting on the bottom of his tank..I didn't do anything except salt the tank then...a couple of days later, he was on his side and died after a day like that...on that last day, I noticed a strand of blood on his tail so it looked like Septicemia.

I didn't think I had a big problem then...I let a couple of weeks go by and the rest of the fish were acting fine. I set up a QT tank and bought a Red and White Ryunkin.....left him in QT for 2 weeks. At the end of the second week, I noticed one of my other fish in the big tank sitting on the bottom...I panicked then and switched the fish(moving the new one to the big tank and the sick one to QT..not the best choice but with only 1 extra tank, not much choice). I got Maracyn II and tried treating in the QT tank...didn't work.,..that fish died after about a week. This repeated over and over with my fish until about January....I was left with 2 fish (the feeders)...alll of the fancies had died with similiar symptoms.

I have tried several different treatments...salt, Maracyn II, Tetracycline (I did have one fish respond to this and temporarily recover...he was ok for a month or two and relapsed and died). After the last fish death in January, my LFS said it was time to take drastic measures. He told me to use Tetracycline and Copper in the big tank to kill any and all bacteria that was there to get the disease once and for all. Luckily, 2 remaining fish at that time did ok....1 did give me a scare because he developed little blackish spots on his body at the end of the treatment...I did water changes and the spots went away.

Then 2 weeks ago, that same fish went to the bottom...at first I thought he was constipated because he looked bloated. His fins were tightly clamped. I fed shelled peas and used Epsom. He ate but didn't get better. I noticed his poops were thin, stringy and white (almost clearish). He also started developing the little black spots again. He then fell to his side on the bottom of the tank. I first tried salt (dips and in the tank)...the salt perked him up a little but only for an hour or two and then he would be back on the bottom. He was able to swim and definately tried to get away for the net when I was trying to catch him for salt dips. I was told that this sounded like an internal bacterial infection. I moved him to QT and treated with Furan since the salt wasn't doing it. The Furan didn't help at all....yesterday I noticed fin rot. Unfortunately today he died

I am really worried about my big tank.....how do I make sure the last remaining fish doesn't get sick....will salt alone help? Do I need to use something in the big tank to help him from getting sick?

How soon is safe to get new fish? I know someone who needs a home for her fish and I would love to take them but am afraid to introduce anyone new.

Also, with a full dose of Furan and 1 treatment of copper ....will the QT tank be safe to use again (with water changes and restabilization)...or should I take it down completely and start over with fresh gravel etc. The QT tank is only a 5 gallon with an UGF (not ideal but all I have).

Note...I was starting to think flukes....I took a toothpick to pull back the gills on the fish that died today and the gills were light around the edge, dark dark pinkish in the middle and had a little spot of dark red near the center....not sure what this means.

Any help you can give would be appreciated...I am at wits end and can't bear to lose any more!!

 

[TCTFish]

I find nitrofurazone to be a good med for goldfish. It's made specific for them. Fluke tabs too for parasites. The stringy white poop you described sounds like internal parasites. If your nitrates are truely that low, then most likely the problems came from another fish or water from another tank. Do you discard the water from the LFS or do you dump it in with the fish? Which fish was purchased last before any problems? How big is the remaining goldfish?

If the remaining goldfish is suitably sized, you could simply put the fish in a bucket with an airstone, clean out the tank and use a 4 parts water/1 part bleach to saok gravel, decorations and filter parts in for at least 30 minutes. Rinse well, let soak again in heavily dechlorinated water...from tap is fine...for a few and then rinse well again. Reset the tank and start all over using the remaining goldfish to establish the nitrogen cycle. That's what I would do in that situation.

I do strongly recommend getting rid of the UGF in the QT and replace it with a sponge filter. Sponge filters are cheap, so there's no great expense. In fact, QTs should be bare...no substrate, with just a heater, sponge filter and something for the fish to hide in or behind...a fake plastic plant or cave.

 

[fishyfan7]

thanks for the info!! I hadn't bought any new fish prior to the original outbreak (in the last year or so). I had bought live plants though. Those are all gone now though because I found they made more mess than good...either the goldfish ate them or they rotted away in the tank. I did buy new fish after the first death....I had 3 "replacement" fish over the last 6 months (but no more than 5 at a time). I never dump the water from the LFS into the tank...I bob the bag in the water for about 15 min and then put some of the big tank water into the bag. Then I scoop the fish out of the bag with the net and release him into the tank (after a 2 week QT period).

The remaining fish is about 3-4 inches. He would only have to stay in the bucket for an hour or so, right? I think he would be ok doing that...so you are suggesting dismantling the tank completely and starting over (all fresh water). How soon would be "safe" to get another fish? I've been offered a Pleco but would need to get him pretty soon (if I dismantle the QT tank and start over, would he be able to live in that and cycle it for a few weeks?)...if I buy the sponge filter, the tank is a 5 gallon and I'm told the Pleco is about 5 inches).

Do you think I need to medicate him too? With Furan and Fluke tabs both? Would I use both at the same time?...or would dismantling the tank take care of needing the meds

 

[fishyfan7]

also....what exactly do you mean by 1 part bleach/4 parts water? I would clean everything in 1 of the 2 cleaning buckets I use for the tanks (the other would be used for the goldfish). It is about 1 gallon om size...how much bleach would I use?

 

[TCTFish]

The remaining fish should be able to cycle the tank if you choose to tear it down, disinfect and reset. However, no other fish should go in for close to two months. That's about the time it takes for an aquarium to cultivate the nitrifying bacteria.

A way without tearing down the tank would be to treat the tank for two weeks with a solution of 1/4 dose methyline blue, 1/4 dose malachite green and 1/2 dose fluke tabs. The hope here is to kill anything that may be in the gravel like free swimming parasites. After treatment, several small water changes I'd say about 15% every two to three days for a week with a gravel vacuum each time. Once all that is done, you can try to introduce a new fish.

The tear down and start back over again method would erradicate whatever is in the gravel. No guarantees it would happen with medicating the tank. I have a funny feeling the problems may have started with the plants, but not the plants themselves. Rather the snails that often hitchhike on the plants. Snails are a common host to many parasites to complete the parasite's life cycle. There is always a risk when you mix snails with fish...especially goldfish. If the fish you've had have been around long before the problems and all that was new to them are live plants, then snails would be my first guess. That's all it can be. Unless necropsies are done on fish that die, all anyone can do is guess. Being that the problems existed prior to the replacement fish, I've rule them out as a cause.

If you choose to bleach the system, the goldfish will have to stay out of the tank until it is done. It'll be fine in a bucket with an airstone for even a few hours if needed. The fish will be just fine. The airstone will allow enough oxygen for the time it takes to clean and disinfect the tank. What I mean by 1 part bleach/4 parts water would be the equivelant to say one cup of bleach to four cups of water...scale it up or down to your needs. A one gallon bucket of this solution would be 1/5 bleach and the rest water.

As of this pleco you're interested in...IMO, it'd be best to hold off for awhile until the tank is stable again...whether you bleach the system or medicate it. If needed, the pleco could live in the QT until the tank is ready for the fish, even if it takes two months.

For future reference when buying live plants, wash the plants well under tap water and use your fingers to go over the leaves to wipe off any snails or snail eggs and of course, continue to QT new fish. Again, I can't be too sure if the snails hosted by parasites is the origin of the problems, but it doesn't hurt to be safe

 

[fishyfan7]

Thanks! The thing that has left me so confused is the duration between fish deaths...don't parasites usually attack at once and kill a bunch of fish all in the span of a few days/week? It's so strange how everyone is ok for a month or so and then I lose another. This last bout went 4 months without a fish death. Can parasites lie dormant for that long?

 

[TCTFish]

Most parasites can continue lingering in a system because of other stages of growth of the parasite. Larvae stages can hang around and survive the onslaughts meant to kill the adults and once they mature and become free swimming, you have a new outbreak. The best way to rid a system of ich in particular, the tank would have to remain empty of fish for up to 6 weeks. It allows the larvae to mature and eventually starve. Bleaching is the other way. So is changing out the gravel. Either way, you'll need to let the take re establish the nitrifying bacteria.

The newer fish certainly could have added to an existing problem because introducing new fish is stressful for all of them, which in turn lowers the immune system in fish. Though the original problems may have stemmed from parasites transmitted between host snail and fish. As stated before, it's only a guess. You'd have to cut the fish open and look at things through a microscope to get factual answers. I've seen pics of cut open fish with all sorts of nasty things inside...YUK!!