I finally beat BBA!

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rkilling1

Aquarium Advice Addict
Joined
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I have had BBA problems for over a month now. Per the KH/pH charts my CO2 was always around 30 PPM, so I never thought that was the problem, but guess what, it was.

I had found that the KH/pH chart maybe a good reference, but with the test kits we use, it is hard to get the actual KH or pH right. For instance: My KH is 2, or should I say at 1 KH it is not at the end point, but at 2 the color changes to the end point color. So that leaves me with a KH of 1 to 2.

Now for pH, I get a color between 6.4 and 6.0, most likely 6.2 or within .1 pH units of that.

So if we take those readings and use the KH/pH chart to plot my CO2 we get:

With a KH of 1 and a pH of 6.3, the CO2 is 15PPM.

With a KH of 2 and a pH of 6.1, the CO2 is 47.1PPM.

I don't know about you, but a CO2 from 15PPM to 47.1PPM is really not that accurate. So how do I know my CO2 is good or not. By that chart I don't.

I have been using a 'drop checker' to measure my CO2 levels. What this does is provides you with a reference KH value and now all you do is compare your pH against it. I add a KH solution of 4KH to this drop checker and then add pH test solution to it and what happens is when you hit 30PPM CO2, or close to it, the solution turns green. That green color represents a pH of 6.6, so with a KH of 4 and a pH of 6.6, I know, with a certain amount of error (far less then that without the reference solution), that my CO2 level is 30PPM.

You can also change the KH solution to 5 KH and that will give you a CO2 of 38PPM when the solution turns green. The drop checker costs 9 dollars and was worth every penny.

Here is an article that got me into this type of CO2 measurement and also got rid of my BBA, because my BBA problem was directly related to having low CO2 values. Please read thru it. I use the redsea brand drop checker BTW.

http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plant-fertilization/2289-old-co2-idea-good-new-idea.html

Before using this 'drop checker', I had my CO2 at 2 BPS, now I have it set at 3.5 BPS and all my algae problems are gone! 2 BPS vs 3.5 BPS is a huge change.

Now that the CO2 is in the correct range, the BBA stopped spreading. I am now on my last day of Excel dosing to clean up what was left. I have been adding Excel at the first dosage level (ie about 3x the normal level) for one week. My BBA is now dead and I also had GW that the Excel took care of. No need for a 100 dollar filter if Excel can take care of it within 3 days.

I have many different shrimps and fish, not one death during this whole process, but YMMV.

Here are some reference pics:

My Tonina sp. 'Belem' before and after.
tank75(19).JPG

tank75(10).JPG


My tank with GW and after using Excel.
tank75(29).JPG

tank75(11).JPG


My Micranthemum umbrosum after 6 days of Excel. (notice the BBA is still there, but it is dead)
tank75(9).JPG


My Anubias barteri v. 'nana', you can see the nice color of dead BBA.
tank758.JPG


Here is my PH that was covered in BBA.
tank75(12).JPG


Here is my 28 gallon tank that had a very bad BBA problem. Notice all the BBA is dead.
tank28(9).JPG

tank28(7).JPG

tank28(5).JPG


My tanks are finally looking great. I just want to emphasize that Excel is not the answer to BBA, but that once you find the problem, Excel is a great cleanup tool.
 
Whoa... I think I just found the next thing I want to do! Very cool idea.

I don't quite understand the mixture that you put in the drop checker... Can you spell it out for me a bit? Starting with some quantity of Distilled Water... Add some amount of Baking Soda... Then add some Regent from a pH test kit... ? Is that right?
 
dapellegrini said:
I don't quite understand the mixture that you put in the drop checker... Can you spell it out for me a bit? Starting with some quantity of Distilled Water... Add some amount of Baking Soda... Then add some Regent from a pH test kit... ? Is that right?

That is it. The mixture all depends on what you want your CO2 level at. (A pH of 6.6 is used a reference because it is easier to see the color at that pH)

I use a scale to add baking soda to the distilled water. Just remember that the accuracy of the KH solution is dependent of the instruments used to make it. I started using 2 1/2 gallons of distilled water with 1/4 Tsp of baking soda and that worked fine for a KH of 5, but I wanted to be more accurate, so I picked up a scale on Ebay.
 
evercl92 said:
Looking good.

What is the plant in the 2nd pic, right side with the fluffy/bushy leaves?

The fluffy one is Tonina sp. 'Belem' and the one right next to it is Ludwigia repens that you sent me.
 
OK, a few more potentially stupid questions:

- How do you get a 6.6 pH starting point? Is all distilled water a perfect 7.0? Or are you buying a special solution? I have 4.0, 7.0 and 10.0 pH liquids to calibrate my meter... Would any of these be useful?

- Assuming I figure out the water base... and I have a nice electric scale, it seems like 2 1/2 gallons of mixture is WAY too much... I am guessing you did that because 1/4 tsp was the smallest semi-accurate measure you had for the baking soda? At kH of 5 and pH of 6.6 you are looking at 37.7ppm CO2 per Chuck's Calculator... I would probably go for a kH of 4 for ~30ppm of CO2... Or maybe 4.5. What is the formula of Baking Soda to Water for dkH?

- Finally, how do you decide how many drops of regent to add? Are you adding the amount specified in the kit (also the water level specified by the kit)? I don't even think I have a pH kit anymore... And that being the case, I wonder which one I should get...

I just ordered one of those Hong Kong Drop Checkers... This is a great fail-safe measure for my automated system. Great thread! You have really accomplished something with your successful battle with BBA!
 
dapellegrini said:
OK, a few more potentially stupid questions:

- How do you get a 6.6 pH starting point? Is all distilled water a perfect 7.0? Or are you buying a special solution? I have 4.0, 7.0 and 10.0 pH liquids to calibrate my meter... Would any of these be useful?

Sorry, I was really vague earlier. The distilled water should not contain any buffers. ie the water should have a pH of 7.0 not including CO2 absorption. We are adding a buffer to increase the pH from there. At a KH of 4 the pH will be 7.6, if the solution contains 3 PPM CO2 (the normal amount without additional CO2) So if we drop this pH with only CO2 down to 6.6, that correlates to a CO2 concentration of 30 PPM.

A pH buffer solution will not work. It is made to resist a change in pH, where we are counting on it changing.

Again a pH of 6.6 was chosen because it is easier to read then others.

dapellegrini said:
- Assuming I figure out the water base... and I have a nice electric scale, it seems like 2 1/2 gallons of mixture is WAY too much... I am guessing you did that because 1/4 tsp was the smallest semi-accurate measure you had for the baking soda? At kH of 5 and pH of 6.6 you are looking at 37.7ppm CO2 per Chuck's Calculator... I would probably go for a kH of 4 for ~30ppm of CO2... Or maybe 4.5. What is the formula of Baking Soda to Water for dkH?

That is correct, I used that much because a 1/4 Tsp was the smallest measurement I could make at the time.

EDIT: I just use chuck's calculator. If you put in the amount in Tsp's, it gives you that amount in grams.

dapellegrini said:
- Finally, how do you decide how many drops of regent to add? Are you adding the amount specified in the kit (also the water level specified by the kit)? I don't even think I have a pH kit anymore... And that being the case, I wonder which one I should get...

I have been using 3 drops of pH solution to 1 ml of KH solution. If you read the article on the barrreport, you will see they are using 12 drops in their drop checkers. It is not confirmed, but it has yet to be a problem if you add to much. The more you add the better color you get, to an extent.

EDIT: here is the drop checker I am using:
dropchecker.JPG
 
Congrats dude! I'm totally charged about your discovery. This will go a long way towards helping others who endure this plague and believe CO2 is not the culprit.

*Did I mention the tank looks gorgeous? (y)
 
Thanks Jchillin.

Here is a good article about how we use KH test kits and how it can be wrong.

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/alkalinity.html

By using distilled water and baking soda, we are making a known KH value solution, which will not contain other buffers and therefore our results are that much more accurate.
 
Taking this another step beyond: for those using pH probes to determine the CO2 and want even better resolution much faster response times:
Using a DO membrane they use on dissolves O2 meters will work if you add a KH ref solution inside between the membrane and the pH probe.

I've come up with another better solution for those not into DIY so much and it'll work quite well:

Use a dissolved Oxygen probe housing/casing that use the screw on O2 membrane teflon tips.

These measure O2 ppm's in the water very quickly as the gas diffuses across their membranes, the membranes also transfer CO2 gas as well, but we are meauring pH in our case, so inside the we use a pH prove instead.

Instead of adding KCL solution inside the DO probe, we use a KH reference solution.

The Drop checker method takes about 2 hours for response times, this take s a few minutes at most. The drop checker uses pH drop indicator solutiions which are about 0.2 pH units apart at best. The pH probe is accurate to 0.02 pH units and can be far more responsive.

The membranes are easy to add and folks already know how to calibrate their pH meters.

All you'd do is take a screw off membrane cap off, fill with KH ref solution, calibrate the pH meter, screw together and you are ready to measure the CO2 using the pH/KH relationship.

the screw on cap with the membrane already attached is easier for most to install than a gasket and rubber band type method and is less likely to leak or tear.

I spoke with American marine and Milwaukee instruments about making these probes since they already have everythign available to make them, they just need to swap parts from one probe to the other.

Basically the pH KH ref probes might run another 25-50$ is all with the KH ref solution included.

Similar methods can be used with marine systems.

Regards,
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com
 
Randy: I think a light bulb just came on. Details make sense now.

Tom: Just when I think I have grasped a concept... I don't understand what you are illustrating here... I do use an SMS122... Do you have a link to a Dissolved Oxygen Probe housing, like the one you are describing? What would it plug into? Another SMS122 or would I be replacing my current probe with a new one? I guess to be clear, I just figured my pH probe was magic, so I have no idea how it is working now to compare to what you are describing :)

TIA for the clarification.
 
No, you simply add a gas memebrane tip to a pH probe, like this:

http://www.coralreefsupply.com/index.php?aquarium=detail&detail=48

Fill with the KH ref solution instead of KCL which is used for DO meters and measure.

The O2 and CO2 both equilibrate at nearly the same rate, thus doing the same thing in terms of measurement when the pH and KH are a combined reading for accurate CO2 determination.

We use the same tip/membrane, justy fill it with a KH solution and use a pH probe instead.
Give the probe about 2-5 minutes till the pH no longer moves around much after a minute or two.

Take the pH reading and compare against the chart for the KH ref solution.
Simple, far more responsive, more accurate and still quite cheap if you already have a pH meter with a pH probe.

I'm hoping that AM, Milwaukee etc will make a nice screw on or slip on cap with a nice pre done membrane like the DO kits but for a pH probe.

They'd only run about 8-10$ with KH ref solution.
Given the supreme accuracy and respionse timke, this is a far more critical method to measure CO2 than the drop checker, even though the drop checker is a much improved method vs some of the assumptions placed on KH, it still takes full 2 hours for a response ot occur.

And that's a long time after the effect of CO2 on plants.
You might ahve way too much and be 2 hours behind.
Thus when using the drop checmer pH solution method, change the CO2 slowly.

The pH KH ref probe tip will improve that method just like the drop checker method was improves using the KH ref.

So for each method folks use for CO2 measure, we have applied the concept of a KH reference to go along with our pH calibration as well.

This way we have better confidence about the CO2 since we have control over both KH and pH completely.

The only difference is accuracy and response time, the drop checker is slow, too slow to answer some of the questions I had in mind.

Also there's an accuracy issue, I want better accuracy than what color metric methods give.

Regards,
Tom Barr







Regards,
Tom Barr
 
Definately an excellent topic and followup OP. I doubt this would have much practical application with DIY setups (the pH probe would be much more useful for that), but for those with pressurized setups this looks great! I'm hoping to be making the switch from DIY to pressurized that this will be on the list of need to have accessories....
 
Congrats RKilling. I was following your post on the barrreport to see how you came out in the end.

I'm in a similar situation (except I am 100% sure it's my CO2). I think I finally have my CO2 stable at around 2.5 bubbles per second. My regulator is still really finicky, but it's been sitting there for close to a day now without any change in bubble rate. I'm not seeing much if any new BBA growth either (normally shows up pretty quickly on new growth).

What exactly were you doing with excel to kill the BBA? I finally found a place that sells excel locally, so I've got a bottle ready to do the deed.
 
A cheapo needle valve is still an issue for some.

I can now measure them very well and also use the bubble rate timed well to show that the needle valves do vary a fair amount, the cheapo ones that come on some regulators etc already built in vs the nice swagelok/nupro etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 
JRagg said:
What exactly were you doing with excel to kill the BBA? I finally found a place that sells excel locally, so I've got a bottle ready to do the deed.

I was dosing at the initial rate, which is about 3 x times the normal amount. I did not overdose the first one, just kept adding it at that dose for 7 days.

Plantbrain said:
A cheapo needle valve is still an issue for some.

I can now measure them very well and also use the bubble rate timed well to show that the needle valves do vary a fair amount, the cheapo ones that come on some regulators etc already built in vs the nice swagelok/nupro etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr

That is a good point. A lot of people, atleast on here, are using Clippard needle valves ( http://www.clippard.com/store/display_details.asp?sku=MNV-4K2 ). They seem very well made, are easy to adjust, and stay at that BPS.
 
I'm sure that all needle valves aren't the same, but I think my problem may be my technique and not the valve.

My second gauge doesn't show any pressure at all. I'm not sure what that should be telling me. I don't know if I blew it out, if it was already blown out, or if I just don't have the pressure up high enough.

Should I be using the needle valve a lot? Meaning if the needle valve is full open that CO2 would be pouring in at an excessive rate. Or should I be following the instructions and getting it as close as possible without manipulating the needle valve at all?

I'm thinking the first of those two options will allow the regulator to work like it is supposed to work, but I'm pretty darn clueless when it comes to this. I apologize from the highjack, and if I should make a new thread let me know.
 
JRagg said:
I'm sure that all needle valves aren't the same, but I think my problem may be my technique and not the valve.

My second gauge doesn't show any pressure at all. I'm not sure what that should be telling me. I don't know if I blew it out, if it was already blown out, or if I just don't have the pressure up high enough.

Should I be using the needle valve a lot? Meaning if the needle valve is full open that CO2 would be pouring in at an excessive rate. Or should I be following the instructions and getting it as close as possible without manipulating the needle valve at all?

I'm thinking the first of those two options will allow the regulator to work like it is supposed to work, but I'm pretty darn clueless when it comes to this.

I answered your other thread (burial at sea) about what I thought was your problem.

Can you adjust the regulator anymore? I would shut the main supply tonight and then fully cycle the regulator adjustment to see where you are.

My regulator is set at 15 pounds and my needle valve is about 1/2 turn, at most, open.

You need to have the output in readable range to ensure a steady supply of CO2.
 
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