I need some tough fish!

[Sara]

[rant]
I am so sick of having fish die on me all the time. Not only does it ruin my day (literally), it makes me want to give up on keeping fish on a regular basis.

I've thought about this quite extensively, and I think a number of factors are in play. First off - let's be honest - when you have a lot of any animal with a relatively short lifespan, there will be deaths on a fairly regular basis. Between my tanks (listed in my sig) and my fish that live with my ex, there is bound to be fish nearing the end of their lives regularily. Other factors that I think contribute include very hard, very high pH water - although I use a combo of RO & tap and try to make it liveable - and the quality of fish in my area.

I do regular weekly water changes, I'm not overstocked, I feed a variety of foods, I watch my fish to make sure they look ok everyday, I buy from the best LFS in town...and yet there are constantly deaths in my tanks. At least once a month, sometimes more...

I think the major problem is that the fish that I really love are the ones listed in my sig...very delicate, prefering soft water, and notorious for problems.
[/rant]

I'm about to set up another 22 gallon tank, and am rethinking the neon tetra/panda cory/blue ram plan that I had. So now I'm looking for TOUGH, HARDY fish that would be happy with my water and my (very loving!) care. I am constrained by the tank size that I'm allowed to have in my apartment, and what types of fish are available locally to me.

So why am I writing all of this? Well, not only do I feel better now that I've gotten the rant out of my system, I'm looking for everyone's suggestions.

What are some small, hardy fish that I can keep in a 22 gallon that won't die on me tomorrow. I'm open to any and all suggestions at this point!

TIA and thanks for putting up with my rant

 

[Danio35]

I just love my Danio's. They are an absolute hoot to watch!! Constantly teasing each other.

I have the same problem, pH of 8.4 and very hard water. Cichlids would be good, but I'm not sure if they would work in your 10 gallon. I bet the 22 gal would be big enough, but I'm not sure. Check out the Mbuna Cichlids. They are gorgeous!

Good luck,

Michelle

 

[Fruitbat]

There are a number of 'smaller' cichlids that would do well in a 22 gallon tank. One that can be exquisitely colored and that stays small is the 'kribensis' (Pelvicachromis pulcher). If you get a compatible pair of these you can be reasonably assured that within no time you'll have a LOT more as long as you provide them with a nice cave or two to spawn in. Being African river cichlids they're not quite as dependent on soft, acid water as the Ram you already have.

Another relatively small cichlids....more unusual in fish-keeping circles....that will absolutely thrive in your hard, alkaline water is the Orange Chromide (Etroplus maculatus). These fish are unusual in that they are one of the few ASIAN cichlids. While not as spectacularly arrayed in color as the 'kribensis', the Orange Chromide has all of the interesting behaviors of the cichlid group and is a relatively easy spawner as well.

There are few things more satisfying to me as a fish-keeper than to watch a pair of cichlids tending to their 'flock' of babies and the 'kribensis' and Orange Chromide will give you a very good chance of being able to watch this fascinating behavior.

-Joe

 

[Menagerie]

http://www.mongabay.com/fish/cichlids.htm

I would not recommend Mbuna, but look for fish from Lake Tanganyika. Shell dwellers will do well and produce fry to look after. I have pics of mine in my gallery.

 

[BrianNY]

Hey Sara... That was wonderfully expressed. I think I really feel your sense of frustration. I'm going to try and encourage you to keep the fish that you really want to keep. There are two reasons for this. 1. You really won't be happy knowing the fish you have are what you settled for. 2. You can succeed in keeping any fish you want, and once successful will be an expert at providing for that fish.

You can start at the excellent lfs you mentioned. Here are some tips. Begin to analyze their stock. How long do they last there and how often does he get new shipments. Ask about the water in his tanks as far as pH and hardness. The more analytical you become with your approach, the closer you'll be towards succeeding.

 

[webmoose]

I personally have had no luck with Panda cories in our high ph hard water. I have 3 rams that are happy and healthy that I have had since may/june ish of last year.

I would still encourage the Rams. I would think you might want to look at some of the other varieties of cories.. I have had much sucess with bronze cories and they have even breed for me in our local water.

Not sure if you are using RO water to adjust the pH but I would consider trying to keep the pH stable more so than adjusted down. I personally try to ignore pH.. I test for it and it stays at the same number so I consider it ok. (even though I know that it is higher than I would personally like it to be)

I use lots of drift wood in my tanks in hopes that it will help the hardwater / pH as well........

Best of luck

mooose

 

[BASSNMAN]

I keep several community tanks with mollies, sword tails and platys. They are colorful and active. They do well in hard water and breed often.

 

[Sara]

Thanks for your comments and suggestions, everyone...they are much appreciated!

I'm going to try and encourage you to keep the fish that you really want to keep. There are two reasons for this. 1. You really won't be happy knowing the fish you have are what you settled for. 2. You can succeed in keeping any fish you want, and once successful will be an expert at providing for that fish.

BrianNY, I totally see your point and I agree with you, but I have to wonder at which point keeping fish is more of a stress than a pleasure. I know that part of the joy of being an aquarist is the challenges that you deal with and beat, but the problem for me is that I'm doing everything right and still not meeting the basic challenge of keeping my fish alive.

I'm trying to look at it not as settling, but 'expanding my fish possibilities' . Maybe there are just fish that I haven't given enough thought to that would be better suited for me?

Also, I think that if I didn't take fish deaths so hard, it wouldn't be as big of an issue for me. Last week was the first time *ever* (in more than a year of keeping fish!) that I disposed of a dead fish myself. In the past, I've always had someone else come and do it for me because it bothered me so much. And while I admit that I'm too attached to my fish (every single one of them has a named and gets a hello everyday ), that's not something that I really want to change.

I guess the bottom line is that there is no more effort that I could put into my tanks that I'm not already doing. It's not like I'm slacking on one thing or another that would be causing me problems. So this leaves me right where I started...knowing that my fish keep dying and not knowing why...

 

[rubysoho]

I understand your frustrations. I'm dealing with an unknown factor that seems to be affecting only my cories at the moment and it is very frustrating. I've also lost fish in the past that I cannot figure out the reason for. One day they are fine, the next they are dead. No swings in pH, perams are perfect, and I am blessed with good tap water too!

Since you are going to "expand" your fish possibilities, I would definitly look into kribs. From what I've heard, they are a lot of fun, packed with personality, and can spawn so then you'll have the challenge of raising fry. I'm thinking about them as a future possibility as well. Good luck!

 

[BrianNY]

I have fish that I get attached to as well. I've even had to send live fish to Mississippi State U. for necropsy just in the hope of saving other fish.

The fact is we all need to be realistic about these little lives that we take on the responsibility of providing for. Fish will die. The younger they are, the more likely as I believe they're genetically predisposed to do so. It's also my opinon that certain species have become dramatically weakened through inbreeding. We don't know the real health of any fish we purchase. A fish could be harboring something fatal that might not even become apparent after a month of QT.

My point is that providing the right chemistry and conditions for any fish is no gaurantee. All fish must be considered fragile and losses are to be expected.
Hope this eases your mind a bit because when fish die, it doesn't have to be because you did something wrong.

 

[Menagerie]

Sara, did you look at the links I gave you? I truly believe you can expand your fish experience and have as much fun as though you have rams. Since cichlids share some behaviors, you will enjoy the smaller Lake Tang fish. Plus they are colorful and have different body types. I know some are bred up there, because that's where my fav LFS gets some of theirs. Have you joined the Aquarium Society up there?

 

[Sara]

Not only did I check out the links, Menagerie, I spent at least an hour surfing around that site at work yesterday Luckily, it was a slow day...but still...

One possibility that is close to the top of my list is a pair of Brichardi for the 22 gallon. The idea of fry is something that is quite exciting, and I've always liked the look of the Brichardi. I'm sure they'd be fairly easy to come across here from a local breeder instead of an LFS, as well. I also looked closely at Kribs, and also the Orange Chromides that Fruitbat mentioned...but I think the Brichardi are winning out at this point...

I'm not a member of ACE up here, but I attend their auctions and am a fairly active member of the Alberta Aquatica board as well (that I think you posted on once ).

Now, my only problem is that I've got 40 lbs of Tahitian Moon Sand, a ton of driftwood currently soaking away, and a $100 gift certificate to my favourite LFS that I was planning on using for plants...all the makings of a South American biotope. I don't suppose that I can use any of that for Brichardi, can I... :?

 

[Menagerie]

Brichardi are great--I kept some for awhile. They did spawn often, but you need to be careful and willing to cull the fry. Some of the fry (due to inbreeding) will have gross abnormalities. Some of ours would have very bent spines. The majority were fine. The older ones will help watch the younger ones.

Alberta Aquatica board as well (that I think you posted on once ).

I check it out from time to time.

40 lbs of Tahitian Moon Sand

That would be fine.

a ton of driftwood currently soaking away

:? Not something you will want.

I went and got flat river rock, soaked in a light bleach solution, RINSED and this is what is looked like!

 

[Menagerie]

Depending on what you read, you may see brichardi listed as shell dwellers or shell spawners. They seemed awfully large for shells

If you want to try shells, get large FW snail shells from the LFS. I pay 25 cents per dead snail, boil the shells and use them. I do not like using marine shells (personal choice). My multies, which are only an 1 long, live with Texas Holey rock and shells. I have pics of another type of shellie in my gallery (they look like bulldogs).

I think you will have fun with brichardi and see similar behaviors, with more excavating, as you would in rams. I can almost guarantee that you will see brichardi for sale at the next ACE auction.

 

[Sara]

They did spawn often, but you need to be careful and willing to cull the fry. Some of the fry (due to inbreeding) will have gross abnormalities. Some of ours would have very bent spines.

Whoa!

Here I am, planning my brand new brichardi tank...and then I go back and read your post again!

Culling the fry?!? *sniffle* What exactly does that involve? How did you do it? How did you decide which ones needed to be removed? How often did you need to?

I think I need a pet that never dies... Maybe pet rocks are coming back in fashion? :?

 

[Menagerie]

Pet rocks are always in fashion!!

Sorry, I didn't mean to scare you. Maybe we just had bad luck. Some of the fry were severely misformed. They were growing and we thought the parents would take care of things. At the 2 month stage when the fry were big enough, I netted them all and placed them in a tupperware, I pulled the ones that were misformed (aside from looking odd, you never know what other genes have been messed with). Trevor fed the fry to our larger cichlids. I couldn't watch, but that's what happens in nature and I would rather recycle than simply kill. In the wild, these fry would have never made it.

Brichardi are extremely popular, but they are over bred. We got our fish from the LFS. Perhaps if we got them from a CAS member, things would have been better.

I think you should continue to plan your brichardi tank and tackle culling later. It may never be necessary.

 

[Sara]

Ok, that makes me feel a bit better...

Where did you get your rocks, by the way? I can probably find places for my driftwood in the other tanks, but I've never really been on the lookout for rocks up here...

Thanks again for all of your help! Now all I need to do is have my tank ready in time for the ACE auction

 

[Menagerie]

They are literally river rocks. They were found in the High Wood River. I had to look in a lot of rivers for the perfect rocks!

 

[xray]

I feel like i'm interrupting in a private conversation between you two, but here goes.
I've had brichardi in the past, they bread many times and not once did I have to cull. I do understand they need though. Maybe second or third generation breeding in your tank could be a problem. I used to bring some fry into the lfs and trade for small fry to try to keep it mixed up.
I think you will really enjoy Brichardi. Like most cichlids they each have there own personalities. It lots of fun.

 

[Sara]

They are literally river rocks.

I laughed out loud when I read that! I'm such a city girl that it didn't even occur to me that one could get their 'river rocks' from said 'river' . I'll have to start looking around if this warm weather keeps up.

xray, thanks so much for passing along your experiences! Please don't feel like you're interrupting...you're most certainly not. And I'm sure that Menagerie appreciates a break in the onslaught of questions that I keep sending her way!

Would you (and any other Brichardi keepers who are still tuning in) mind telling me about your Brichardi tank set-up?

Thanks!