Ich and still no resolve!

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saa5886

Aquarium Advice Freak
Joined
Jul 5, 2010
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OKC, OK
Alright so....I've lost the majority of my fish now to this horrible disease..I even did a huge water change (about 90%) and now ALL my fish are covered. I've been treating with these blue Ich tablets you get at the store (it says one per 10 gallons, so I used 2 and a half...25 gallon tank)...
I would be willing to bet at this point I'll lose them all by tomorrow morning. Is there anything else I can do at this point?:confused:
As a side note..when I did the huge water change, I treated it again with the proper amount of SafeStart and conditioner. About 3 gallons of their original water went back in with them.
I took a sampling of my water to a local fish-only shop and they said it was "slightly high" in nitrite, nitrates, and ammonia but "not enough to hurt them or kill them".
They offered to quarantine my fish for free until my tank was healthy again, but I've tried calling them and theyre already closed for the night. Problem is, I'd be willing to bet if I dont do something tonight, theyll die. Help!
 
Ich cannot be killed just like that. Methylene blue can only kill the free swimming form of the Ich parasite. You have to treat and then treat again even if symptoms seemed to have disappeared as the cysts and eggs of the ich parasite will still be present in the substrate and filter.

Raise your temperature to 84F and then dose again. Raised temperatures accelerate the Ich's life cycle from 7 weeks to just 3 weeks.

Some other users will chime in on better ways to treat it. I haven't had ich myself in 7 years to tell you the truth.
 
Knowledge is power.

If its that bad you're likely screwed... This pest is deadly, and already well advanced in it's infestation when it becomes readily visible.
All the fish and the tank must be treated at the same time.

ChileRelleno said:
Read these articles, read the linked articles/documents in their links, the Skeptical Aquarist has some especially good links.
"Knowledge is Power" & "Know thy Enemy", read, read, read, read, read...
SkepticalAquarist article
AquariumAdvice article
Cichlid-Forum article

Lets dispel a common 'Fish Myth' right off the bat...
ICH is NOT always present in the water/fish...
It is not airborne, it doesn't travel by Spores, it will not come in via tap-water during a PWC and it does not lay dormant.
It must be introduced in some way as noted below.

If you follow through on the 'Heat & Salt Treatment' as specified, I practically guarantee the 100% eradication of ICH within your tank...
Unless you re-introduce it thru lack of quarantine/preventative treatment with new fish, unquarantined/untreated transfers of plants, decor, water or by cross contamination thru the use of equipment in multiple tanks.

'Heat & Salt', either of these treatments alone can/will kill the ICH protozoa, together they eradicate ICH very effectively and completely.
This treatment is especially safe with Oscars as they are very tolerant of both heat & salt.
Please be aware that some fish, inverts and plants may not handle heat or salt well and treatment may need to be adjusted to fit their needs.


Temperature:
Raise it slowly, but ASAP, to at least 86'f, preferably 87'-88'f.
One degree (1'f) every twelve (12) hours is the normally recommended interval for increasing heat, but in a emergency like ICH I'd raise as much as one degree (1'f)every six (6) hours.

Duration:
Hold temp for at least two weeks after the last sign of ICH.

Oxygenate:
This is extremely important because water holds less O2 at higher temperatures.
Filter outflow splash, spraybar or powerhead flow directed at surface, airstone/bubblewands are good ways to increase surface agitation.

Salt:
Salt is not required, but it is IMHO very helpful and I recommend the combination of Heat & Salt.
I recommend continuing the 'Salt treatment' for the duration of the 'Heat treatment'.
Use at your discretion.
Be aware that some Cats/Plecos (in particular Corydoras), Tetras, Loaches and etc, can have adverse reactions to salt.
Fishes that navigate by electric fields, like Elephant Noses, Knifefish, certain Eels should never be exposed to salt.
Many plants are intolerant-highly intolerant of salt.
By raising salt levels to 2-3 ppt or 1.002-1.003 specific gravity above what one normally keeps the tank at can destroy the Ich parasites. It has a strong effect on osmosis, and dehydrates the parasite to the point the parasite can no longer function and dies. Again, raising levels slowly but not too slowly is key here; raising salt 1 ppt per day is recommended. Generally 7.6 grams of salt per gallon is equal to 2 ppt or 1.002-1.003 specific gravity . However, it?s the chloride ions which are necessary for the treatment, and different salts have different levels of chloride. It?s best to purchase a hydrometer which measures low levels of salt to ensure proper dosage.
2 weeks at those levels sure eradicate all the parasites. Again, be sure all the fish in your tank can deal with those levels of salt. On that note, most scaleless fish CAN handle these levels of salt. Plecos and Loaches especially do fine despite Internet rumors to the contrary. It has been noted some tetras and Cory's do not do well with salt, however.
Based on everything that I’ve read to date, I would feel comfortable adding 2-3 tablespoons salt per 5 gallons if I were also using the high temperature treatment outlined above. If I were using salt alone, I would work my way up to 4-5 tablespoons per 5 gallons. We don’t want to skimp on our treatment if we hope to permanently eliminate this pest. Salt should be added slowly over the course of 24-48 hours or so (always dissolve in a small container of tank water first). Keep a close eye on your fish and perform an immediate water change if they show any additional signs of stress (beyond what the Ich is already causing).
For detailed info about salt check this out, SkepticalAquarist- Salt

Here are the conversions/measurements for dosing salt from a reliable source, see page four (4), table 3, units in parentheses.
conversions/measurements
Note; you may want to adjust your dosage +/- as desired.


Water Changes/Vacuuming SubstrateWater changes are very helpful in fighting ICH infestations.
Using a gravel vacuum, do a large water change and thorough vacuuming water on a daily basis.
This eliminates a great number of trophozoites and tomites from the water/substrate.

Other ways to combat ICH
A UVS, Ultraviolet sterilizer when properly setup will kill free-floating ICH.
A Diatom filter will capture and kill ICH too.
Micron filtration depending on the size may perform as Diatom does.


Medications:
I would only recommend the use of standard* medications as a last resort, and used in conjunction with the heat treatment at slightly lower temps, 80'-82'F, these temps will greatly speed up the life-cycle and shorten the time needed to medicate successfully.
IMO this is the last resort, a truly desperate measure for a ICH infestation gone unchecked...
I cannot recommend any of the standard* meds, use at your own risk.
Their effectiveness when used as directed is controversial, despite manufactures claims some still seem to affect a tanks bio-filter and many fish-keepers report undue stress related complications.
Many ICH meds will adversely affect/kill scaleless fishes and inverts.
Many ICH meds will also further deplete oxygen levels, take countermeasures as per above.

*A non standard med, ICH-Attack.
ICH-Attack is a 100% natural remedy that has proven anti-protozoal and anti-fungal properties.
Active ingredient is Naphtoquinone which is not known to be carcinogenic as many standard meds are.
Manufactured by Kordon, available at various retailers.
DrsFosterSmith

If you use standard meds the read this...
Do a water change prior to starting treatment and remove the carbon from the filter media; not the entire filter. If the carbon is part of the filter cartridge, make a slit in the side of the filter media and remove the carbon.
Be aware meds will most likely destroy the nitrifying bacterial colonies. Be prepared to measure ammonia and nitrite levels, and reduce the levels if necessary, by water changes or ammonia/nitrite reducers (this is the only time you?ll see me recommend their use!). Water changes likely will affect levels of meds in the tank, and you may need to adjust doses to keep the meds at the levels needed to kill the theronts.
Once treatment is finished, you?ll need to remove the meds from the water. Best way to do this is to run fresh activated carbon in your filter for a couple of days.
** Do note, the directions on the meds are generic; if you remember from the earlier discussion ich has a life cycle with only one stage susceptible to meds. Do not follow the directions when it comes to length of dosing times as some will claim to eradicate Ich in as little as one dose. The first treatment will only kill a percentage of the parasites (remember the Ich life cycle). It?s better to continue treatment till 3 days after seeing the last white spot on your fish; this way you can be fairly sure you have eradicated all the parasites.
AquariumAdvice article
Please realize that ICH like everything else in the world has it's exceptions, however rare.
There has been cases where ICH has been able to complete its full life cycle under the fishes slimecoat/skin, rendering it for all intents untreatable.
There are cases where ICH has survived salt as high as five (5) tablespoon per five (5) gallons. (Not sure as to what this dosage equaled when measured in 'ppm' or 'specific gravity'.)
There is one (That I know of.) reported and documented case where ICH survived temps beyond 87'-88'f.
These are rare exceptions, not the norm.


These are my opinions, this is how I would treat my fish, just my $0.02...
Goodluck!
 
Alright well heres an update...I ran to the petco because it was the only place open at the time (everything in Ok closes at 7...i have no idea why)...and I got a better filtration system...which is a Whisper30..and I got some meds...its all I knew to really do. I wanted to try the salt thing but didnt quite understand what ppms were and I also dont even use a heater (the tank naturally stays at 76 degrees).
At this point I've spent $50 today...I kind of wish I had spent that on a heater and some salt... freakin A.
As for the meds...its called Lifeguard...and its just been placed in the tank....if you guys think I should take it back out immediately and do the heat instead...I'll return it and get a heater and salt...
 
PPM: Parts per million or mg/Litre of water. Parts per million is via mass only.
For example
10litres of water = 10kg.
10miligrams of X in 10 kilograms of water is 1ppm.

So in a 35litre tank you need 350 miligrams to make 10ppm. 175 to make 5ppm and so on. I'd go ahead and invest in a heater.
 
Get a heater, and turn it up to 86*, salt 1tsp per gallon. Leave heat up for 10 days at least, and remember, it will look worse before it looks better. You might need to do some pwcs if you have ammonia, since the fish will heal faster in a clean tank. Also remember that salt does not evaporate, so you will have to manually take that out too.
To take the meds out that you already have in there, you will need new carbon in your filter. I am not sure how long it takes to filter it all out, since I don't know what your gph is, but I always left mine running for 24 hours.
I wish you luck!
 
Could we get pics of your entire set up including filters and such?

Were it me, I would turn off all pumps, filters ect. treat the tank w/ pimafix & melafix- they are the best IMHO, and they smell good to- they are, for the most part, natural formulas to treat this stuff.

First: If it is a canister system, clean it out with a solution of water & bleach, if it's a HOB, do the same, - rinse well and re-install with new media- no carbon, yet.

After you have "dosed" with the above (following the directions on the lables of course), remove ALL filter media and throw it away- including any carbon ect., and then turn on the circulation pump(s)- no filter media- carbon ect.. The tank will get "foamy"- this is ok. Keep the water as cold as possible (70f is ok)- heat allows ick to grow rapidly- so, turn off the heater- it is after all, summer time. (at least here), cooler is better for the present moment- but not cold.

Let this cycle for 24 hrs, then introduce NEW filter media, using NO (or very little carbon) as possible.

Wait 24-48 hrs. do a 25 to 33 percent water change with RO/DI water, then all should be ok.

After 1 week you can again use carbon, but slowly. Keep the water @ 76-78f no higher- cooler is better then higher. While carbon can be of great use, it can also store very harmful bacteria and viruses- esp. at higher temps and even more so when depleted.

ICK is more often then not, due to over heating of aquaria, and this is why it spreads so quickly. Additionally, high salinity levels in salt water tanks have been proven to also be a cause of the ick pariste in s/w tanks- just an FYI.

BTW, what kind of water did you start your tank (aquarium up with)?
 
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Get a heater, and turn it up to 86*, salt 1tsp per gallon. Leave heat up for 10 days at least, and remember, it will look worse before it looks better. You might need to do some pwcs if you have ammonia, since the fish will heal faster in a clean tank. Also remember that salt does not evaporate, so you will have to manually take that out too.
To take the meds out that you already have in there, you will need new carbon in your filter. I am not sure how long it takes to filter it all out, since I don't know what your gph is, but I always left mine running for 24 hours.
I wish you luck!

160 gallons per hour and its only a 25 gallon tank lol so its already cycled quite a few times :)
 
^ FYI. Cycling refers to amount of time the water is "turned over" not the volume that has been displaced.
 
Well heres an update...
I had a client cancel on me today which was going to pay for the heater to speed up the process so...no money=no heater unfortunately.

Last night a neon died...which I fully expected. All others are alive but not too well.
Then as I was looking in my fry tank, I noticed one fry had ich....the very one I had taken out of the big tank. I decided to quarantine him so I put him in a one gallon glass bowl with a tiny bit of sea salt. As for his original tank, I removed all the other fry and boiled the tank as well as everything that went in it to ensure the death of the parasite. I then added fresh water back in (treated of course) and put them back in. They are happy little babies. Much cleaner now!

As for the sick tank, one stood out to me, which is the male black molly. Somehow he doesnt seem to be showing Ich anywhere, so I decided to quarantine him in his own little 3 gallon deal. Just in case, I added a little bit of sea salt (just pure sea salt dont worry) to his tank since he was no longer being exposed to the tank with meds.
As for the sick tank, I havent done much this morning except add a little sea salt to it as well. At this point I feel its all I can really do since I'm broke...

I took another one of those horrible test strip tests, and actually, everything came out as perfect. Looks like Prime is good stuff.

So now I have a 25 gallon sick tank, a 5 gallon with a black molly, a glass bowl with one fry, and a 3 gallon with 4 fry. Its a mess. But the good news is, all the temperatures are remaining stable, all the fry (with exception to the sick one) look happy...well actually so does the sick one, and our black molly doesnt seem stressed at all.
As for the sick tank...I dont have much hope. The fish are suffering now from fin rot. I feel horrible for them.
 
oh and as a side note, i do plan to continue treatment on the black molly just in case..
 
If you can remove the meds that are in there, and go get some QuICK Cure ($3 @ Walmart) I would switch meds. I used it for my betta when he had ich, and it worked well. You only have to use it for 3 days, but it does turn plastic things blue. And onlly use 1/2 doses for tetras, if you choose to go that route.
The molly and fry could have ich in the gills, so make sure you watch out for that. :(
 
hmm... not sure if I've used that but I completely used up some kind of blue dissolving tablet...
The meds I got seem to be pretty good...they treat it all, and I want to treat it all considering my Molly and guppy died from Dropsy..I just want to kill everything in this tank.. I'd rather stick with something broad than something too specific in this case since there is so much going on. Its nuts.
 
dkpate: Alpha, heat speeds up the life cycle of ich, so turning the temp down only prolongs the parasite. :sad:

I am sorry but I believe you to be very incorrect, as well- you remove filters/carbon so that medications can work correctly, raising temps stress an already stressed fish, the rise in tempreture does nothing to cure the sick fish, it is actually detrimental and only treats the water NOT the sick fish- as follows:

Curing ick

There seems to be a misunderstanding about ick and temperature.

The disease is caused by a parasite. When it's on the fish it
cannot be killed by anything. However, after a while it leaves the
fish to reproduce (or as larvae, I don't remember) and during this
free swimming stage it CAN be killed by various chemicals in the
water.

Heat merely speeds up this cycle; it does nothing to kill or
weaken the parasite.

Many many things will kill ick. Nearly all of them either
kill plants, kill the fish (with scaleless fish such as
catfish being the most sensitive) or flat out don't work.

I've used "Jungle Life Guard" exclusively for more than
20 years now. I don't know if that is still the name for
their ICK cure, but, you don't need to raise the temperature,
it won't hurt scaleless (or even extremey small or otherwise
sensitive) fish and works ever time. No need to change water
after, either. I've never lost a fish to ick, ever.

On the other hand I understand what you are saying I simply prefer the above treatment, and I also quarintine all fish to a different tank.

Here is the best article I have found using the heat method- but it takes so long to destroy the parisites- many fish usually die, see here :

Understanding and Treating Ich or White Spot by Shelli Wittig (aka Fishgal)
 
I have also never lost a fish, but 90% of the people on this forum use the salt and heat method.
When you turn the temp up the 86*, it speeds up the life cycle of the ich, as I stated before. It will look really bad on the fish, then it falls off the fish and goes into the substrate forming a cyst. The cyst then explodes into thousands of more free swimming parasites, which will reattach back onto the fish. Turning the temp up makes all of this happen faster, the ich is not able to reproduce.

From: Using Heat to Treat Ich in Freshwater Tropical Fish - Article at The Age of Aquariums - Tropical Fish

It has been found that Ich does not infect new fish at 29.4°C/85°F (Johnson, 1976), stops reproducing at 30°C/86°F (Dr. Nick St. Erne, DVM, pers. comm.), and dies at 32°C/89.5°F (Meyer, 1984), [1]

The Ich life cycle is temperature dependent. Higher temperatures within its livable range speed up every stage of the life cycle, while the lower temperatures will slow it down. At 18°C/64°F the cycle takes 10-12 days to complete.

Increase temperature to 30°C/86°F. With tropical fish, an increase in temperature to 30°C/86°F is usually very well-tolerated. Since this temperature prevents reproduction of Ich, it can theoretically cure the problem by itself. So the first step would be to increase the temperature slowly, 1°C/2°F per hour until the correct temperature is reached. This temperature should be maintained for 10 days, and then slowly returned to normal. Some fish can tolerate higher temperatures. If your fish are more heat tolerant, try increasing the temperature to 32°C/89.5°F for the first 3-4 days to kill the Ich. Then reduce temperature slowly to 30°C/86°F, and hold it there for an additional 6-7 days, or until a total of 10 days have passed. Gauge the heat tolerance of your fish by observing their reaction.

From: Understanding and Treating Ich or White Spot

destroy the organism with heat, and can be combined with the salt treatment below, but not with meds. The data I studied (including a report by the Southern Regional Aquaculture Center, which is currently archived here) suggests that most strains of Ich cannot reproduce at temperatures above 85�F. To use this treatment approach, slowly (no more than 1 or 2 degrees per hour) raise the temperature to 86�F, while maintaining strong continuous surface agitation to oxygenate the water.
 
I forgot to ask one last thing in regards to treating with meds... the new filtration system i got yesterday has a special filter that you can not remove... its called a bioscrubber... is that going to affect the meds at all?
 
oh and as far as the heat thing.... i have to agree with dk on this one... every single thing ive ever read says its one of the best ways to fight this...
I apologize if I'm wrong but the quotes above that says "ive used jungle life guard" honestly just sounds like a sales pitch to me. They also say "i dont remember" in another quote... I'm sorry but when dealing with the life of my fish I'd like the person I take my advice from to remember how things work.

Sorry if that seems stern but being new at this, I want to be sure I do this right, and if I've found something (i.e. heat) that seems to be the overwhelming good opinion of aquarists...I'll take that.
 
As long as there is no carbon in the new filter, you should be good to go. :)
I just read somewhere when I was looking for ich stuff, that filters like the AquaClear actually help get rid of the ich and stuff, and maybe it was talkinga about those things. Ich can't live without a host for very long, so I think you should be fine.
 
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