Ich?

[molliwopp]

Their numbers will continue to increase in open water, because there is no QT, or major predator to keep them in check. 1 turns into 50, 50 turns into 2500, and so on since the beginning of ich. I don't understand what you mean by balance. If you are referring to the sheer size of the ocean, then eventually, there will be plenty of ich parasites for every fish. It's just a matter of time. Just like it is in a small tank.
Have you ever seen a single dead fish on a shore with ich spots all over? I haven't. The majority of folks in this hobby have seen ich at least once. So, with those odds, don't you think we would at least see a single fish in our lifetime, infected in the wild?

They are not healthy fish for long if they are in a confined space IMO.

Well whats your definition of a confined space?
Ich needs a host to continue its lifecycle and without one it dies off quickly. In nature the number of the 150 tomites from a single excystment that manage to infect a host is probably a single figure. The ocean is its own QT. No major predator to keep them in check? No more like thousands. Ich isnt a paracite that effects everything and theres still thousands of forms of life that prey and can consume ich which also is forming the balance i mention.

No ive never seen a dead fish on the shore line infested with ich for the reasons above, if there wasnt a balance like i mention then i would have and infected and infested are worlds apart. Now compare that to an aquarium.
In an aquarium it only becomes an infestation because 1 that attaches becomes 100+ and then thats where confined spaces become detrimental.

 

[mr_X]

Just as the ocean is a much bigger place, so are the amount and size of fish in it. I don't think there is a shortage of hosts in the ocean.
Again, from experience, I have never QT'd aything and haven't had a problem with ich. I've even introduced ich covered fish, and they recovered in my closed system.

 

[woody390]

Mr x do you have anything to help the fish like a uv steriliser?

 

[mr_X]

No. Just keeping them fed and keeping a moderately sized, non-aggressive community, along with never attempting to house fish that are too large or too active for my system has worked for me.

 

[Gregcoyote]

I could not agree more. For years in humans and even fish the effects of long term stress on the immune system is very well known. That is what makes the fish fall prey to parasites and infections. You eliminate the stress and the fish's immune system takes charge again and the parasites can't penetrate into the flesh.

 

[wrasse326]

I've read before tangs are not susceptible to ich in the ocean because they only stop to sleep and while they sleep any of the parasites drop off to reproduce or whatever and by the time those ich parasites are ready to reattach the tang gets up and swims away. Fish don't stay in one spot in the ocean long enough for ich to attach to them. And if they do they eventually drop off and then the fish is long gone before they have a chance to reattach so they have to search for another host. And think about it. Fish are still stressed in the ocean dodging bigger predators

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[mr_X]

But the ocean stress is short lived, not an ongoing thing, like a 4" tang in a 40 breeder. Also, do you think that all the ich parasites go through their life cycle at exactly the same time? some are falling off, while some are hopping on...
The tangs in aquariums only stop to sleep as well.

 

[molliwopp]

Greg, I never agrued that for second. Quite the opposite if you read any of my other posts. Of course the fishes ammune system helps to an extent as anything living has to have one, even plants or everything would just die off. Regardless of that, heathly fish have a hugely greater chance at resisting but can sucumbb to the paracite ich if an unchallanged infestation breaks out from un-QTd fish.

 

[mr_X]

I disagree, for the record. I have seen the opposite.

 

[molliwopp]

I disagree, for the record. I have seen the opposite.

Well example: adding 6 heavily infected fish to a super healthy tank with a super healthy single fish. Forget about stress caused by the new additions and without any form of intervention, do you believe that the existing fish would resist ich completely or slowly weaken and become a host itself?

 

[mr_X]

I'm not sure. What I wouldn't do is add 6 heavily infected fish at once to any tank. I have added 3 tangs at once to a tank, and they all showed signs of ich (whites spots all over, scratching), and they all recovered. There were other fish present and they never showed a sign.

 

[molliwopp]

I'm not sure. What I wouldn't do is add 6 heavily infected fish at once to any tank. I have added 3 tangs at once to a tank, and they all showed signs of ich (whites spots all over, scratching), and they all recovered. There were other fish present and they never showed a sign.

And i believe in your experience. If you keep a clean tank with healthy fish and good water and you add a fish with ich, yes i believe that they can fight it off only maybe be seeing afew spots. I was merely using it as an example that it is possible to over whelm a heathly fish if it were exposed to high concentrations of it. My example was impractical and admit it would very rarely happen if at all but it fitted the train of thought i was following.

 

[wrasse326]

But the ocean stress is short lived, not an ongoing thing, like a 4" tang in a 40 breeder. Also, do you think that all the ich parasites go through their life cycle at exactly the same time? some are falling off, while some are hopping on...
The tangs in aquariums only stop to sleep as well.

But they cannot escape the ich in our tanks they are trapped with them lol

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[wrasse326]

With my experiences I havent had luck keeping ich off no matter how healthy I keep fish or how well they eat or how well I keep up with water quality. So I just can't agree with any of that stuff. No offense to you though if it works for you it does.

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[Gregcoyote]

Everybody has an opinion, this time thru my experience I am siding with X.

I have experience with infectious disease in humans. Remember the "boy in a bubble?" His immune system failed opening him up to infections in the environment that we would never notice or succumb to. He had to live in a perfectly filtered artificial environment. We stress fish sometimes, their immune system (slime coat) fails and it can put them in the same position, there can be no infectious organisms of any kind in the tank. We use UV light and go thru lots of exercises to try to eliminate every one of these organisms. Our tank becomes the boys bubble. It is far better to bolster a good immune system than to try to live in a sterile environment.

If you want disease resistant fish, it starts with reducing their stress.

 

[Gregcoyote]

This article suggests something I believe, only a copper filled tank can be totally free of Ich spores. Invertebrates can host the spores, so the 8 week fallow program could be flawed. I think our fish are subject to far more infectious organisms on a daily basis than we ever dreamed.


http://bestfish.com/saltich.html


I know of folks that had spontaneous outbreaks of Ich and didn't add any new fish, inverts or even corals for over a year. The organism couldn't have been introduced from the outside, so where did it come from? IMO it was there all along. It took one fish's failing immune system to take off.


Wow, my rant is over, I'm watching tv for awhile!

 

[wrasse326]

It was there because it was introduced before. I had an anthias that never showed a sign of ich for a year but every other fish did. Yea they can fight it off if their healthy and not stressed but if you've never introduced ich I just don't believe it can grow itself out of nowhere just because a fish is stressed. I'm stressed all the time but I'm never sick and parasites don't just pop up on me. And from what I've read and I read a lot before decided to leave my 120 empty for 12 weeks inverts cannot host ich

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[Gregcoyote]

We will agree to disagree.

 

[Mebbid]

I'm have a question to both Greg and X. What happens when a new fish is added into your tanks (which is a fairly stressful situation) and gets ich. This ich multiplying and causing a large.. bloom for lack of a better word of the parasite in your tank. Presumably the fish haven't developed an immunity since it's still present in your tanks but wouldn't that in itself potentially cause a cascade effect?

 

[Hondatek]

A tank can be ich free without constantly dosing copper. To think that it is impossible is completely ridiculous IMO. If you proactively treat your fish in quarantine and do a form of tank transfer on anything that isn't a fish before going in your tank you will not get ich .
If you do all those things there is no chance no matter how stressed a fish gets since it is a parasite it does not appear out of nowhere . It must be brought in .