Introducing fish from diff pH

[Daid]

I've done water changes, 20%, 20%, 20% and 20%. During these water changes, I've put less and less salt, last 2 had no salt.

I got 3 more guppies from the LFS (NH3=0,NO2=0,NO3=80, maybe i should try another LFS).

5 hour slow drip. Finished at about 1AM. The following day

Day 1 - Good
Day 2 - Good
Day 3 - Clampy fins, ohh no... not again....
Day 4 - All clamped fins

I've now purchased another 30L tank, HOB, Heater and bubble for QT (I've learned my lesson).
I'm using substrate and filter from various sources and its fully cycled (NH3=0,NO2=0,NO3=0-5) No salt, just tap water + Prime, pH=7.6-7.8.

Just hoping they will recover... This is driving me bananas. I have 1/2 dose multi-cure + Sulfa-tabs (normal dose).

The symptoms are usually clamp fins -> fin rot or death. So i hope i can advert it with the anti-bacterial tabs.

Its very strange as my main tank 85L, one of the females just gave birth to 30 frys, so my water is okay, i guess. Fish can survive. But why can't i get new fish?? The previous frys are growing up nicely and are starting to show colour. One of the females suddenly died, she was having trouble giving birth... her only one fry died soon after.

If they do not make it,
1. So I'll tare down the tank and rebuild, is washing everything with tap water enough to kill all the nastys? or would i need to use bleach or something?
2. Or how would I know that its bacterial or parasites that's causing the problems?
3. If its a bacterial or parasite problem, how would I treat my main tank without stressing the existing guppies? They seem fine as they are, i don't want put them through unnecessary stress.
4. Should I try to get some more guppies/diff fish from another/same LFS? There isn't many shops that sell female guppies in the area, mostly male.

 

[jsoong]

You sure have a head-scratcher there ....

The fish are showing problems at day 3, so it is probably something latent that is brought on by the stress of moving. Perhaps this is ich. It is not unusual to have ich in a tank at low levels & see no symptoms, but once the fish is stressed, everything is stressed.

For now, I guess you will have to wait & see if the fish survive in the QT. If fish don't survive QT, I would sterilize the tank just to be safe. <1:10 bleach soak, followed by lots of rinsing, final rinse with 4x overdose of dechlor, then dry & air out for a few days.> Certain filter pads will disintegrate in bleach, and you can't get bleach out of carbon (reliably). You might want to just get new, or perhaps use H2O2 for that. <Another alternative to bleach is potassium permanganate; safer than bleach. But I've use bleach without problems. I am always careful to rinse/dechlor/airout.>

Fine substrate like sand is tough to sterilize. Most people leave the QT bare-bottomed so they don't have to worry about that.

I think you can try another lfs for your fish. It would eliminate some possibilities. Treating the main tank is a judgment call. The tank had been contaminated with the new fish, since you had them in the main tank before QT. If it was ich, I would say go for the heat treatment. Otherwise, I would be loath to start antibiotics in the main tank without any fish showing symptoms. <Antibiotics may kill your bio-filter, which would REALLY stress the fish ... so the treatment might be worse than the risk of bugs in the tank.>

If we assume that the disease in the new fish is an opportunistic infection due to stress, then the bugs responsible would be a normal part of the tank ecosystem, and you can prob. leave it. I would only treat the main tank if you have new fish that survives QT, but caught something as soon as you transfer them to the main. In which case the main has a low level infection that should be treated. Anyone else has any opinion on that?

 

[marchmaxima]

It's defintitely a head-scratcher, as Jsoong put it. I can only suggest not going back to the LFS who sells fish from water with nitrate at levels of 80ppm. That is not a good start for the fish you're getting. Although this does not explain why fish from your friend die like that. Presumably he has heathy stock with no issues.

Good luck with the QT. Sorry I make any more suggestions but I'll be interested to see what (if you find out) the problem turns out to be.

 

[ricardo48]

Yeh keep us posted so we can be better advised to assist someone else should they experience the same problem in the future.

 

[Daid]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the help, I've setup a QT tank. The QT tank has filter media and some gravel from the main tank.

I've given up on getting new guppies as my female guppies have given birth to about 60 frys (4+4+12+20+30 order of birth batches) and the 8 (4+4) have been moved back into the main tank and are all happy. We have a separate tank for frys.

I decided to get a bristlenose catfish when I was at the LFS (was too tempting ). When we got it, it was still a baby, 2.5cm (1 inch), we were told to have the temp at 28C. When we got it to our QT tank, the next day I noticed some Ich. Ohh deear... not a good start.

Did a heat 30-31C treatment + half dose multi cure + some salt and only fed him cucumbers (i didn't want to buy algae chips unless he didn't make it). After a few days he recovered from the Ich and is doing fine, left him there for a week to make sure it's all good, slowly turned down the temp over a few days and introduced it to the main tank. Its munching on algae happily for the past week or 2.

I talked to the LFS to find out where they get the guppies from, they have 2 batches, imported guppies and local guppies.

The female guppies that survived were imported guppies, delta black ones + rainbow. They haven't got anymore imported guppies since, so I'm still waiting.

I was there yesterday, and the local guppies (delta red or something) were not looking good. They have 2 tanks, male and female.
Half the male tank is dead and the others not looking good, 1/8 of the female tanks are dead and the rest are shimming, so I guess their guppies aren't too good. I wont be buying local guppies from there anymore, looks like they have the same problems I had.

I also noticed the same looking guppies (delta red) at different fish shops, not so local, about 15km away, and they weren't looking well either. Possibly a bad wholesaler? or just generally weak guppies?

I noticed a big temperature difference between the LFS and my tanks. They keep the fish at about 28-29C while I keep mine at 24-25C. My friend doesn't have a thermometer, so I don't know what temp he keeps it at. I'll have to buy him one for his Birthday and see what his temp is at.

Such a big temperature difference maybe?

I'll try it with my friends guppies with a higher temperature in the QT tank when I get the time. Thanks for all the help, I'll keep you guys posted if I manage to get some guppies that make it through alive.

 

[Daid]

Update

Thank you all for all the advice and help, this is just an update after a long time.

My guppy population have grown quite a lot.
1 main tank - 60L (40? theres alot in there)
1 female tank - 30L (currently 10)
1 fry tank - 30L (currently 20-30)

I haven't managed to get my hands on any more imported guppies, as the LFS only have local bread ones that looks pretty sick, might have the same problem.

I've narrowed it down to difference in bacteria, bad in breading or weak/no immune system.

eg.
My Guppies = A
Friends Guppies = B
5x A + 5x B = 5x A alive + 5x B dead
1x A + 5x B = 1x A alive + 5x B dead

My friends guppies will live happily if they are in their own tank, but if one of my guppies are in there, it will kill what ever of his guppies...

I've had 5 of his guppies in rain water, and put 1 of my guppies in there. All 5 died about 5 days later (the more water the longer it takes) and my guppy will be still happily swimming around alive by itself after the 5 days.

I have now 3 bristle noses in my tanks which are alive and well.

I'm just clueless as to what is going on, is there such thing as a difference in fish bacteria?

 

[jsoong]

Fish can certainly accquire immunity to various bugs. In this case I think a virus is most likely. Supposed that your fish has a virus, those that survived accquired immunity, but still carry the virus. When you introduce it to the other guppies, they all catch it & die.

The same can happen with bacteria or parasites, but viral infections are just more likely.

Of cause, all this is just a guess. But based on your experience, I would think that you should QT your entire stock. You can let your fish live & reproduce on their own, but not add any new fish or give/sell any of the babies to others. Perhaps after a few (dozen?) generations, you might try & see if the fish still are carrier of whatever is in the tank.

<BTW - from what you are seeing in the lfs, I would not be surprised that whatever it is is rampant in your local breeders.>