mikedj - 20 Gallon Journey

[jlk]

Hi Mike! Let's see if we can figure out what's going on (or not) here. I know you have a chart posted but it's a bit difficult for me to read it on my cell but I'll take a look tomorrow.

Ok, have you done any water changes yet? What type of water conditioner are you using? What are your numbers for ammonia, nitrite & nitrate for both your tap and tank right now? Do you know if your water has chlorine or chloramine (public water) or is it well water?

Next, the nitrite test. When you test your tank, does it ever turn any shade of purple/pink (even briefly) then changes to a blue shade? I know, a lot questions- do your best to answer them & we will try to figure out what's going on here!

 

[mikedj]

Hi Mike! Let's see if we can figure out what's going on (or not) here. I know you have a chart posted but it's a bit difficult for me to read it on my cell but I'll take a look tomorrow.

The chart is pretty detailed, so if you can get a look at it, it may help paint a picture of what we've done so far. The last data on the posted chart is from a week ago, but all values have held steady since that time.

Ok, have you done any water changes yet?

Early on I did a near 100% water change to correct an ammonia overdose. Since then, only added water due to evaporation. Note that the water is and has been very cloudy for about 4 weeks.

What type of water conditioner are you using?

Seachem Prime

What are your numbers for ammonia, nitrite & nitrate for both your tap and tank right now?

Haven't done the tap water by itself, nor the nitrates, yet. I will get all of those measurements today.

Do you know if your water has chlorine or chloramine (public water) or is it well water?

Public with chloramine.

Next, the nitrite test. When you test your tank, does it ever turn any shade of purple/pink (even briefly) then changes to a blue shade?

I haven't watched it that closely, usually just come back in five minutes to see how it's doing.

I know, a lot questions- do your best to answer them & we will try to figure out what's going on here!

I welcome the questions - it's the only way to figure out what's going on. And I very much appreciate the help.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[jlk]

Thanks! Ok, let me know what all of your numbers are for tank & tap when you have a chance so I know where your starting from and what things read now. Pay particular attention to the nitrite test. Then, I want you do as close to a 100% water change as possible (temp match & condition). Double dose the Prime to the size of your tank before refilling. Based on what your tap ammonia level is, use the calculator and only add enough to bring your tank ammonia up to 2ppm. For example, if you have .50ppm in your tap, put 'desired amm level' at 1.5ppm to get a total of 2ppm in your tank. Then add 2-3 pinches of finely crushed fish food. Lets then see if anything happens over the next few days before we try anything else.

Im sure this was already mentioned, but do you know anyone with a healthy cycled tank that would be willing to donate some media? If not, you can consider purchasing an 'active' filter from Angelsplus. They sell live, cycled sponge filters. Ill post the link below. Another consideration would be adding a product such as Tetra Safe Start or Dr Tims One & Only. I dont care for these bottled bacteria products but there are some people that have had success with these brands in particular.

Aquarium Sponge Filters

 

[bcmakesiteasy]

Thanks! Ok, let me know what all of your numbers are for tank & tap when you have a chance so I know where your starting from and what things read now. Pay particular attention to the nitrite test. Then, I want you do as close to a 100% water change as possible (temp match & condition). Double dose the Prime to the size of your tank before refilling. Based on what your tap ammonia level is, use the calculator and only add enough to bring your tank ammonia up to 2ppm. For example, if you have .50ppm in your tap, put 'desired amm level' at 1.5ppm to get a total of 2ppm in your tank. Then add 2-3 pinches of finely crushed fish food. Lets then see if anything happens over the next few days before we try anything else.

Im sure this was already mentioned, but do you know anyone with a healthy cycled tank that would be willing to donate some media? If not, you can consider purchasing an 'active' filter from Angelsplus. They sell live, cycled sponge filters. Ill post the link below. Another consideration would be adding a product such as Tetra Safe Start or Dr Tims One & Only. I dont care for these bottled bacteria products but there are some people that have had success with these brands in particular.

Aquarium Sponge Filters

^ im definitely going to try out the angelsplus active sponge filter, it looks legit. So you just run an air tube through the sponge and thats it?

 

[jlk]

^ im definitely going to try out the angelsplus active sponge filter, it looks legit. So you just run an air tube through the sponge and thats it?

You can either run it with an airpump/tubing or cut it up and place it in your filter. Just keep in mind, the bacteria your adding with this filter should be proportional to your tank size- a single sponge filter will likely fully cycle a 5g but will only have minimal effect on a 120g. If your adding ammonia, you will want to drop the ammonia level down to 2ppm or less before adding filter so you dont overwhelm the good bacteria in it. You then can gradually (over days) increase the ammonia level when your sure the bacteria are settled in and doing their job.

 

[mikedj]

Tap Water
pH: 8.0
ammonia: 1.5
nitrites: 0
nitrates: 0

Tank
pH: 8.1
ammonia: 3.5
nitrites: 0
nitrates: 0

The tank ammonia level appears down 0.5 ppm compared to yesterday's reading (4.0) - maybe it's starting! It did go down once before, making it to 1.0 and then I dosed it back up to 4.0, where it has stayed for the last 10 days.

I have a Python, so the 100% water change shouldn't be a problem. I've only done it once before, but it went well.

Question about the fish food. I've read that it isn't necessary if you have a good ammonia source. Is there something else it adds besides ammonia ? And, if I understand it correctly, it won't add ammonia until it breaks down.

As for the media, I don't know of anyone who has any. I might be able to find some, but haven't searched yet since I've read it will start on its own if you are patient, so I've tried to be patient.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[jlk]

The fish food isnt going to provide any signifigant source of ammonia- you would need to dump an entire container in to do this and it would be vile mess! Bottled ammonia is easy and clean. What food will provide is a source of phosphates which are necessary for the nitrogen cycle to progress. Most tap water has phosphates in it anyway but without tests for this, adding a bit of fish food is a simple way to add some in case your tap is lacking.

Yes, nature will do her own thing on her own timetable but at 5wks, I would have expected to see a bit more progression in your tank. Fishless cycling can be a bit complicated when everyone starts with completely different tap water sources that has various compositions. We just test the basics in fw, so when theres issues cycling its a bit of trial and error to try and figure out why things are not progressing like they should.

 

[bcmakesiteasy]

You can either run it with an airpump/tubing or cut it up and place it in your filter. Just keep in mind, the bacteria your adding with this filter should be proportional to your tank size- a single sponge filter will likely fully cycle a 5g but will only have minimal effect on a 120g. If your adding ammonia, you will want to drop the ammonia level down to 2ppm or less before adding filter so you dont overwhelm the good bacteria in it. You then can gradually (over days) increase the ammonia level when your sure the bacteria are settled in and doing their job.

what if im starting a 20 gallon? would the 15-30 ppi active sponge filter be enough? The 50 ppi one is out of stock

 

[mikedj]

jlk, thanks for the detailed response. Though it's been a long road so far, I continue to learn a lot and the fishless cycle makes for a much less stressful learning environment (for me and my daughter). She has been very patient as we learn about creating a suitable habitat for our fish, and she's really learning a lot. Your help is greatly appreciated.

I haven't done the water change yet, but I will report once it's finished.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[mikedj]

The water change went well, cleared up the cloudy water and brought the ammonia level down. I dosed it back up to about 1.5 ppm and it's stayed there for more than a week. Unfortunately, nitrites have also held steady at zero. The water Is also starting to cloud up again.

I checked one lfs for some seeding material, but he just looked at me like I had three eyeballs. He had also never heard of adding ammonia to start a fishless cycle. I will continue to try and find some seeding material.

The lfs recommended stress zyme, but I've read mixed reviews about going that route. My preference would be to figure out why the cycle won't start, if at all possible. So, what do you think I should try next?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[librarygirl]

Hi! Jlk asked me to take a look at this thread to see if I can come up with any thoughts as to why the cycle is stuck.

You seem to be doing everything right. One thing I'll ask is: is there an air stone in the tank or does water fall from the filter into the tank creating a ripple at the surface? If so then that's good as it'll promote oxygen exchange which the bacteria like. If not, you might want to try increasing the surface agitation a bit (lowering the water level can help some).

Other than that I don't see anything that stands out. Your issues seems similar to mine when I tried cycling my tank: ammonia almost never dropped and I never had nitrite. I even added a seeded sponge filter from Angels Plus and from some members here who sent me filter material from their tanks and nothing. I even tried breaking everything down and starting again with a new tank, new filter, etc but nope. After 7 months I tried everything except changing my water source. Once I switched to spring water and replenished it with minerals and added a new seeded sponge, my cycle completed in 3 weeks (complete with nitrite). I've had fish for over a year now and I'm back to using tap water and it's all going well. If I can get my tank cycled anyone can, so we won't give up until you have fish.

Now I'm not saying your tap water is the issue, but it's a possibility we'll have to entertain. At this point I can suggest three options:

1. Try getting an "active" sponge filter from AngelsPlus; they use them in their fish tanks and sell them. Make sure you get one that says "active" next to it or else you're just getting a plain filter. You can either hook it up to the air pump and run it that way or cut it up and put it into your filter if there's room. With the addition of some bacteria, that in itself might help the cycle progress. This might be the easiest solution to try first.
2. Scrap your tap water and use spring water with some minerals added like Seachem Replenish or Kent's RO Rite. This would be a more expensive option, though and maybe not one we'll need to do right now unless you want to try it. You could also try fortifying your current tap water with the minerals in case something in your tap water is lacking.
3. Give up on the fishless cycling and try fish-in.

Those are what comes to mind right now in terms of options. I'll think on it more and see if there's something I'm missing.

 

[mikedj]

Thanks for the ideas. I have an Aquaclear 50 HOB filter and it does supply some aeration. There is a small but constant supply of bubbles coming down from the surface. I also came up with a couple of possible sources for seeding material which I'm working on now. If that fails, I'll look at the AngelsPlus route.

Again, thanks for your help.

Mike

 

[mikedj]

I'm still waiting for some responses on seeding material, and still no change in the cycle.

One thing I didn't mention is that some very fine, wispy algae has developed on some of the decorations. Does that mean anything in particular, good or bad, for the cycle?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[jlk]

Is it green or white? It just means your tank is capable of growing algae. With ammonia as a food source & some light, its not a surprise. I would just watch that it doesnt grow out of control. I am sorry your having such a hard time here! If seeded media does not help, you may want consider Librarygirls route and switch your water source until your tank is happily cycled.

 

[mikedj]

The algae is white. It's not very aggressive at this point, it's just on a couple of decorations. I'll continue watch it.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[mikedj]

Still no change in the cycle, however, some good news - I finally found someone who will donate some seeding material! They are very close, so we plan on trying to hook up with them this weekend. I think they have filter material as well as gravel, so I'm very optimistic. Is there anything special I should do?

Also, what should I expect the nitrite and nitrate levels to do after I seed the tank?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[jlk]

Thats great news! I am not sure where your ammonia levels are right now, but drop them down to @1ppm before adding the media. This way your bb will not overwhelmed with ammonia as they adjust to your tank parameters (this may take a few days). What (hopefully) you should expect to see is the ammonia start to drop. You may or may not see a nitrite spike depending on how well established the media is. If its well established, you may not see any nitrites but just see your nitrates increase. Good luck and keep us posted!!

 

[mikedj]

Ammonia is at about 3.5 ppm right now, so I'll do a partial water change and bring it down. Thanks for the info - now I know what to expect, which is half the battle.

Mike

 

[librarygirl]

Good luck, hope the media helps. Keep us posted!

 

[mikedj]

We got our seeding material as planned (about a week ago, now) - an old filter and a cup of gravel. Before adding it, I did about a 95% water change and got the ammonia level to 1 ppm. I measured all of the levels before adding the seeding material:

pH - 8.0
ammonia - 1.0
nitrite - 0
nitrate - 0

After the water change, the water has remained clear. It had been getting cloudy about 2-3 days after previous water changes. A few days in we also noticed a couple of new residents - they appear to be Malaysian trumpet snails, a tiny one and a bigger one. They are happily munching on the small amount of algae that has built up. I've read mixed reviews on their desirability in an aquarium, but my daughter is THRILLED that we have critters living in our tank!

I've been measuring the ammonia level daily and it has held steady at 1 ppm. However, I measured everything tonight and we finally have nitrates!! Woohoo!!

pH - 8.0
ammonia - 1.0
nitrite - 0
nitrate - 5.0

So, I'm assuming the ammonia level will start to drop and that I should dose it back up a bit when that happens. Is that correct?

Thanks,
Mike