New behaviors (to me anyway)

[WendiDell]

Good day all,I have a Cichlid question.
Just recently my 4 young male Cichlids have begun to dig. Not just random digging, but digging under the decorations designed to hide in.
Instead of just putting rocks in my tank for them to hide behind, I put in things that that could hide in even when they reach full size. They are all about half size now. And few days ago one by one they each picked a deco. and began going inside getting a mouth full of gravel and coming out and then spitting out the gravel.
Is this normal? If so, why are they doing it? Or is this abnormal and same question, what would make them do it?

 

[Wy Renegade]

It they are African cichlids, this is totally normal, especially if they are all males. The male African induces the female to breed by enticing her to lay her eggs on a clean, bare surface. After laying, the female then collects the eggs off the bare rock and holds them in her mouth until they hatch into fry and often for several days or weeks after they hatch. It is therefore not uncommon at all for Africans to burrow beneath or within rockwork or other decorations. They are also algae scrapers in their native environment, and thus as they pick the rocks up, they can often be observed mouthing the rocks as they clean the algae off of them. Yours sounds more like they are staking out territories and establishing their claims to me.

 

[WendiDell]

Thank you so much for answering my post. We were beginning to worry about them. Their lips are starting to look a little worn.
It is all my males and one of my females. But the two that are doing the most (insane amount) digging are a pair of Red Zebras. They've made huge piles of gravel around a fake coral cave until the whole thing was on the glass.
I thought that these guys would be to young to mate. They are only 8-9 months old and not even close to being their full size.
I mean they are good size for their age but they're still just adolescent. Could they be breeding so soon or just going through the motions for the future?
I'm still working on getting the tank to cycle all the way through. I always thought that things needed to be ideal for fish to breed. I'm not ready for fry.
If they are breeding, what do I do with the babies when they get older? Can they be sold back to the pet store? I'm so not ready for this, OMG!!!
I think I'm having a panic attack.

 

[Wy Renegade]

Most likely they are currently going through the motions, but it is not uncommon for some species to breed within the first year. Some species take longer. I have 4 year old brichardia that still haven't breed, and yellow Labs that didn't breed for the first three. Personally I've found that Africans breed fairly readily, given enough space. As for the babies, if you leave them in the tank with the parents, you will most likely only have 1 or 2 survive to adulthood. In nature less than 1% of fish offspring reach maturity and breed themselves, in our man-made systems, unless you have lots of cover the % is most likely smaller than that. Sometimes LFS will take fry in trade or for cash, but it will depend on the individual LFS.

As for the panic attack LOL, calm down - your fish will handle this whole process nicely without your help, unless you choose to remove the brooding female. If you do decide to do that, I recommend that you research brooding time and remove her just prior to release. I've found that trying to remove them early often results in mom swallowing or spitting out the eggs.

Also be aware that first timers are not very good parents, so mom is actually most likely to get hungry and simply swallow the eggs prior to maturity, especially if she is very young. In fact, some books I've read suggest that catch and force mom to release the eggs if she is breeding too young in order to allow her more time to mature. Brooding can be extremely stressful on the mouthbrooders.

 

[WendiDell]

Most likely they are currently going through the motions, but it is not uncommon for some species to breed within the first year. Some species take longer. I have 4 year old brichardia that still haven't breed, and yellow Labs that didn't breed for the first three. Personally I've found that Africans breed fairly readily, given enough space. As for the babies, if you leave them in the tank with the parents, you will most likely only have 1 or 2 survive to adulthood. In nature less than 1% of fish offspring reach maturity and breed themselves, in our man-made systems, unless you have lots of cover the % is most likely smaller than that. Sometimes LFS will take fry in trade or for cash, but it will depend on the individual LFS.

As for the panic attack LOL, calm down - your fish will handle this whole process nicely without your help, unless you choose to remove the brooding female. If you do decide to do that, I recommend that you research brooding time and remove her just prior to release. I've found that trying to remove them early often results in mom swallowing or spitting out the eggs.

Also be aware that first timers are not very good parents, so mom is actually most likely to get hungry and simply swallow the eggs prior to maturity, especially if she is very young. In fact, some books I've read suggest that catch and force mom to release the eggs if she is breeding too young in order to allow her more time to mature. Brooding can be extremely stressful on the mouthbrooders.

None of that sounds to great. I do have a lot of cover in my tank. I wanted to make sure they all had good places to hide and make their own.
I took some pics. today they aren't great but I'll post them so you can see how I set things up for them.
The only problem is that even though I made sure that there was a cave or rock or cubby for each and everyone of them, they all want to stay in the same cave. So they keep beating each other up, to claim the same cave.
I'll post tank and fish pictures and you can let me know if I'm missing something.

 

[WendiDell]

I can't figure out how to post the tank pictures to show all the cover I have for my Cichlids. Any Idea how to post pics?
I'm not that great with computers. People and animals I get, machines not so much. HELP!!!!

 

[Wy Renegade]

I can't figure out how to post the tank pictures to show all the cover I have for my Cichlids. Any Idea how to post pics?
I'm not that great with computers. People and animals I get, machines not so much. HELP!!!!

Wendi how large is your tank? Sounds as though you may have several males battling to establish territory in too small of a tank. The issue with African's is not so much individual rocks or places to hide, as it is territories. In the wild a single dominant male of a species stakes out a territory which is often larger in size than our home aquariums. They then defend that territory from any and all others, but especially other males of the same species. This results in what we see as aggressive behavior in our tanks. With African's, more is always better when it comes to rocks and places to hide.

Here's a poor picture of one of my 100gal tanks to give you an idea of what I'm talking about. Sorry about the poor quality and reflection, it was taken back in the day before I had photobucket.

As for loading pictures, I find it easiest to host the pictures on another site (photobucket is free), then copy the picture IMG Code (by clicking on the IMG Code button below the pictures once they are uploaded to photobucket) and paste it into your post here.

 

[WendiDell]

Wendi how large is your tank? Sounds as though you may have several males battling to establish territory in too small of a tank. The issue with African's is not so much individual rocks or places to hide, as it is territories. In the wild a single dominant male of a species stakes out a territory which is often larger in size than our home aquariums. They then defend that territory from any and all others, but especially other males of the same species. This results in what we see as aggressive behavior in our tanks. With African's, more is always better when it comes to rocks and places to hide.

Here's a poor picture of one of my 100gal tanks to give you an idea of what I'm talking about. Sorry about the poor quality and reflection, it was taken back in the day before I had photobucket.

As for loading pictures, I find it easiest to host the pictures on another site (photobucket is free), then copy the picture IMG Code (by clicking on the IMG Code button below the pictures once they are uploaded to photobucket) and paste it into your post here.

I have a 55 gallon tank 48"L x 13W" x 21"H. I have 4 males and it's not that they don't have space to swim or duck away from one another. The problem is that all want the same cave in the same corner.
They all want to be in the same 6"L x13"W x 21"H. They ignore the rest of the tank.
You'll see what I mean when I get the pics. posted.
For now I have them separated in my hosp. and QT to give them (and me)a break from battling.
I also have 6 females, but they are almost always hiding to stay out of the way.
Got to go but I'll try get the pics. up later today or tomorrow.
Again thank you everyone for all your help. It means a lot and it has been very helpful.

 

[WendiDell]

Wendi how large is your tank? Sounds as though you may have several males battling to establish territory in too small of a tank. The issue with African's is not so much individual rocks or places to hide, as it is territories. In the wild a single dominant male of a species stakes out a territory which is often larger in size than our home aquariums. They then defend that territory from any and all others, but especially other males of the same species. This results in what we see as aggressive behavior in our tanks. With African's, more is always better when it comes to rocks and places to hide.

Here's a poor picture of one of my 100gal tanks to give you an idea of what I'm talking about. Sorry about the poor quality and reflection, it was taken back in the day before I had photobucket.

As for loading pictures, I find it easiest to host the pictures on another site (photobucket is free), then copy the picture IMG Code (by clicking on the IMG Code button below the pictures once they are uploaded to photobucket) and paste it into your post here.

Well I ended up having to separate 2 of my male Cichlids. They were fighting over the same cave so much they really started hurting each other.
Plus I removed the habitat that they were fighting over so no one gets it for now.
Since Marty and Sonny have been in separate tanks, all is peaceful again. Charlie and Barry don't seem to have a problem with each other.
But Marty and Sonny can't stay in the smaller tanks for long, just until they've healed from battle.
My question is, should I leave the cave out of the tank permanently? Or will they just find another spot to fight over?
I still haven't been able to post any pics. of my Cichlid tank. I'm just not very good with computers. If it doesn't say, "Click Here To" whatever it is I want to do. Then it's to advanced for me. It may take some time but I will keep trying to put some up. It will easier to answer questions if you've seen the set up.

 

[sarahh]

the males are always going to fight. the best you can do is make too many hiding places for the sub dominant fish. Red Zebras can and will fight to the death. they are the more aggressive tendency type fish.
as for breeding, i have had juveniles at about 6- 8 months breeding. females holding and everything. most of the time, the parents are terrible.
i have ONE out of about 15 mommas who actively protects her fry. The rest spit and then hide or eat the fry.

If you make a few really good hiding spots at different locations in the tank, you should be ok with boh fish. introduce marty and sonny to opposite ends of the tank at the same time. but every time they get out of control, turn off the lights or feed them. it will distract them long enough for one to get away.

for hiding spots i use cichlid stones, reptile hideaways, texas holey rock and some great landscaping. In some of the tanks, about half way down, i put "barricade" rocks, so no fish can swim from one end to the other without stopping. that can help with target aggression...
HTH

 

[Wy Renegade]

Well I ended up having to separate 2 of my male Cichlids. They were fighting over the same cave so much they really started hurting each other.
Plus I removed the habitat that they were fighting over so no one gets it for now.
Since Marty and Sonny have been in separate tanks, all is peaceful again. Charlie and Barry don't seem to have a problem with each other.
But Marty and Sonny can't stay in the smaller tanks for long, just until they've healed from battle.
My question is, should I leave the cave out of the tank permanently? Or will they just find another spot to fight over?
I still haven't been able to post any pics. of my Cichlid tank. I'm just not very good with computers. If it doesn't say, "Click Here To" whatever it is I want to do. Then it's to advanced for me. It may take some time but I will keep trying to put some up. It will easier to answer questions if you've seen the set up.

I believe they will just find another spot to battle over, and they will continue to do so until one establishes itself as dominant or one of them dies. If one doesn't die, the subordinant one will always be harressed and picked on by the dominant one.

I assumed originally that you did, but in rereading through the thread, I realized you haven't really indicated that you do; do you have females of the assorted species in the tank or only males? With some species of cichlids, esp. the Mbunas, higher numbers of the same species are recommended - other wise individual aggression is simply too high. If you have 10 fish of the same species (both male and female), the dominant male is going to divide his aggression between the other nine members, but will still concentrate the majority of his efforts on the subordinate males. If you only have two fish, those two fish are dedicating 100% of their aggression on each other.

If you are only keeping males, I recommend a single male of each species. If you are keeping a mixture I always recommend at least two males. I know this sounds mean, but it greatly aid the females to have the dominant male have a primary target so to speak. Other wise, he focuses so much aggression on the females that especially when they are brooding they will end up so beat up that they usually die off.

One of the things you might want to try is rearranging all the rockwork in your tank. This forces all the members to redefine their territories. In this case, that may or may not help. How many total fish are you keeping in the aquarium?

 

[spoonman]

Overstocking is the answer in this senario I think. I had about 15-20 mbuna in a 55G tank and they did great. Will have to narrow that down when they get bigger, but that is about a year or so down the road. More fish lessen the aggresion in my experience. Lots of rocks to hide in. Also with all the fish in the tank, try rearranging the structures. That will force them to find new territories and if you have enough hiding places the males might stake out two separate places and leave each other alone.

 

[WendiDell]

the males are always going to fight. the best you can do is make too many hiding places for the sub dominant fish. Red Zebras can and will fight to the death. they are the more aggressive tendency type fish.
as for breeding, i have had juveniles at about 6- 8 months breeding. females holding and everything. most of the time, the parents are terrible.
i have ONE out of about 15 mommas who actively protects her fry. The rest spit and then hide or eat the fry.

If you make a few really good hiding spots at different locations in the tank, you should be ok with boh fish. introduce marty and sonny to opposite ends of the tank at the same time. but every time they get out of control, turn off the lights or feed them. it will distract them long enough for one to get away.

for hiding spots i use cichlid stones, reptile hideaways, texas holey rock and some great landscaping. In some of the tanks, about half way down, i put "barricade" rocks, so no fish can swim from one end to the other without stopping. that can help with target aggression...
HTH

Thank you, I'll try that as soon as they both heal from the last battle.
I already have 14 hiding places and only 8 Cichlids. All the hiding places are camouflaged with plants. The problem is that they all want to take up residence in the same cave. Leaving 13 other hidey holes empty.