New CO2 setup

[Mordachai]

I've got my first CO2 system going. I'm old enough to just be able to afford the good stuff: COMPLETE ULTIMATE Co2 SYSTEM (best of the best)($600+ VALUE ! )

Sadly, that system doesn't come with anything that one might call "instructions." But it's not that complicated, just a tad overwhelming at first.

At any rate, I've got it all going, but I didn't like the bulk and look of the internal diffuser. I had previously bought an UP aqua Inline CO2 Atomizer 16/22mm aquarium Atomic Diffuser Reactor.

So I got that working today (takes > 13lbs pressure to get it to start mixing the gas into the water).

But my Ph immediately rose after I switched from the Aqua Medic 500 Internal reactor to the UP aqua inline (though I can see a steady mist of CO2 being emitted from my return line from my canister filter, so I know it's working - apparently outputting a good deal of gas).

So... I like the sparse look of not having the Aqua Medic, but if the PH indicator is a solid measure, then the Aqua Medic was better at injecting CO2 than the UP aqua inline is.

Has anyone else had experience with either of these (or similar) items, and what was your experience?

 

[aqua_chem]

Were you running the same BPS for both? It's difficult to compare method to method for a number of reasons. Which one you prefer aesthetically is more important in my mind. You can always increase the BPS for the inline reactor to get to a similar level.

Have you considered an inline reactor like a RG or Cerges?

 

[Mordachai]

That's kind of what I'm asking or getting at: seems to me the most relevant and honest measure is the PH, no?

With the internal I was previously able to drive down the PH to 7.0 (my set-point on my controller).

When I changed over to the UP aqua inline, the PH rose to 7.5 very quickly.

When I changed to the inline, I did have to change a lot of the settings on my regulator

- I had to go from about 1.8psi to 14psi to get any gas to enter the water (fiddling around trying to figure this out / accomplish this certainly contributed to the rise in PH - it took a while!)

- I temporarily increased the bubble rate to max for my regulator in order to quickly build up the pressure to get the gas to start entering the water (it really needed 14 psi or close before I could visibly see that CO2 was entering the water - and the PH was just continuing to rise so I had no other way to measure or know whether it was happening prior to that).

- Once gas was flowing into the water, I turned down the bubble rate to like 1/second. However, the gas continued to enter the water rapidly (visibly a lot of it - huge billowing clouds of it). So I tried turning off the gas flow (turned off the controller which turned off the regulator), but the gas continued to flow for about 1/2 hour or hour. When I turned everything back on, the CO2 was still visibly coming into the tank through the up aqua inline, but the PH was stubbornly sticking at 7.5. So I figured that although it was very visible from the inline, it must not be dissolving very well and hence not driving down the PH. So I wrote this post, and switched back to the internal regulator.

- Ironic thing: the internal regulator allowed it to drop to 7.4 almost immediately, but then has been stuck there ever since. [So I don't know if I reassembled the internal in a way that was somehow less efficient? Maybe the way I'm attaching the power head is moving less water / less agitation into the diffuser? Maybe my new placement of the diffuser isn't as well placed as it was, so the outflow isn't entering the water as efficiently?

I'm feeling a little annoyed by my tank of late: everything I do seems to have effects that are not nearly as predictable or direct as I would have thought they would be.

Add more CO2, drop the PH. Except... more complicated.
Keep the water clean with lots of good filtration and the BB will be happy and keep the ammonia and nitrites around zero. Except... something happened to my nitrite producing BB and now I have nitrites in my water???

Meh, seems like the effect should follow cause more directly, but never appears to.

 

[aqua_chem]

Everything you mentioned could possibly play a role. I think your best course of action is to pick one and tinker with it until it works for you.

Do you have a drop checker? If not, you should really get one ASAP, as it is a better measure of CO2 than pH, although in this particular case you're measuring relative CO2 levels in the same tank, so it works pretty well compared to it's normal use.

Honestly, I've always had good luck with inline atomic CO2 diffusers. I've used both UP Aqua's and GLA's, and they both work well enough for me.

 

[Mordachai]

I figured out a little more today.

Last night, when I switched to the inline, I thought I might be lowering the O too much on accident (by putting too much CO2 in), so I turned on my bubbles to ensure plenty of air in the water.

I left them on overnight, and turned them off this morning (figuring they'd be helpful to everything's respiration overnight, but probably not necessary during the day when the plants are photosynthesizing and giving off O).

My tank's PH didn't fall overnight (actually, rose to 7.5 by morning). But when I came home for lunch, the PH had fallen to 7.1! So, my internal one is working as well today as yesterday. It must just be that with the bubblers on, the CO2 is ejected from the water nearly as quickly as it is injected, regardless of whether I'm using the inline or internal reactors (at 1 bubble per second).

I'll let things stabilize, and see how I like the internal reactor a bit more, then try the inline again.

I wonder if I should put the entire CO2 system on a timer, and only run it during the day? Or is that going to be stressful to the fish? [Reasoning: plants aren't taking up CO2 when they're sleeping anyway, and the fish certainly don't need a hyper-level of it].

[NOTE: One reason I have turned on my bubblers again is to try to saturate the water with oxygen, to help my BB grow & thrive, since my nitrites are up, and my understanding is that BB love high-oxygenation which is why they thrive in the filters where the flow keeps them highly oxygenated (However, I see no improvement in nitrite->nitrate conversion after 4 days now)].

I just started looking at the other diffusers you mentioned.

 

[aqua_chem]

An airstone will rapidly remove co2 from the water. You really shouldn't be using it anytime you want co2 in the water. Some people choose to run them at night, but its largely unnecessary.

You should only be running co2 during your lighted period. I recommend turning on your co2 an hour before your lights come on, and turning it off when your lights go off. It's not necessarily bad for the tank, but you'll waste about 3x as much gas if its on for 24h (as opposed to 8h).

CO2 and O2 have a fairly complicated relationship. CO2 by itself will not really reduce oxygen levels in the tank, but as they are both gases, they are affected by the same thing, and since oxygen is usually below its equilibrium point and co2 is above it, things will often affect them in opposite ways. For instance, some people with co2 try to have minimal surface agitation to minimize offgassing, which in turn decreases oxygen by reducing how much enters the water. I recommend placing spraybars/outputs/powerheads such that you have noticeable ripples (no splashing) and increasing co2 to account for the increased offgassing. This way you maintain good co2 levels as well as good oxygen levels.

 

[Mordachai]

Back to your earlier point, I have a drop checker on the way. I had ordered it a week ago, but international, so maybe here next week. Until then I'll rely on visible signs of stress and the PH sensor.

I switched to my buildmyled tonight - OMG the plants are producing O2 like crazy! Definitely don't need air when they're doing such a magnificent job.

That's interesting about the surface agitation - I too had heard it's a bad idea with CO2 due to outgassing. However, the need for O2 is real, at night at the very least when the plants are respiring too, so maybe I'll just leave my Whisper HOB 60 on indefinitely. That definitely adds a bit of atmosphere into the water without going nuts. (I had been planning to take it offline when I thought that the new canister filter was finally up to snuff with BB, but the more I continue to run the system, the more I think I'm just happier leaving it on).

I really do wish I could understand what's wrong with my BB. I can see a very small amount of ammonia tonight, and about the same (.5ppm) nitrite. Can't figure out why I have either - as I've only added filtration media, not reduced it; nor has there been any incident that I can think of that would jeopardize the BB (no chlorine, no big jumps in ammonia load, not much of anything).

Just weird, and concerning. The levels aren't crazy, and the fish and inverts look happy and active and unstressed; but even with reduced feeding and some WC's, the levels aren't coming down (outside of the WC's). Very, very odd and concerning.

Hopefully I'll figure out something. Maybe the increased O2 from the plants will get things moving. I just don't understand why the BB seem to be suddenly inadequate to the task?!

 

[eAts]

With the UP aqua inline atomizer, I'm surprised its working with 13 PSI. I run mine at 35 PSI to get it flowing. I would also recommend using a drop checker to determine CO2 levels. You mentioned you run a HOB along with the canister filter. I do this as well and have had great success thus far.

 

[20cc]

how close did you put your up inline diffuser to the outflow? you gotta put it near the cannister on the outflow tube so it will have time to dissolve into the water by the time it comes out the outlet into the tank. i had an inline diffuser like yours and i only saw a few bubbles coming out. i switched and made a diy reactor for like 10 bucks and i really like it.


if its too close to the outflow into the tank ..you will just be losing co2 gas. thats why your PH wasnt dropping like before.

 

[aqua_chem]

how close did you put your up inline diffuser to the outflow? you gotta put it near the cannister on the outflow tube so it will have time to dissolve into the water by the time it comes out the outlet into the tank. i had an inline diffuser like yours and i only saw a few bubbles coming out. i switched and made a diy reactor for like 10 bucks and i really like it.

This isn't true at all. The water probably spends only a few seconds in the tubing between leaving the filter and leaving the outflow, much too little time to completely dissolve. There's also a in-tank version of the diffusor that works just fine.

 

[Billbug68]

Lets get a few things straight. You're running a ph controller, correct? Also, how long did you let the inline run before testing your ph? It sounds like you tested it immediately expecting a drop?

 

[Mordachai]

I have a Milwaukee 122 PH controller and a Carbon Doser solenoid.

So I'm using the readings on the Milwaukee controller to report PH.

I do have the UP Aqua inline near the termination of that line (but I tend to think that a foot or two (at most, due to the line being only about 2' long) isn't going to make a whole bunch of difference. It's just the nature of the inline to inject the water with very small bubbles, and hope that they dissolve as the water rushes into the tank.)

Currently I'm using the Aqua Medic 500 internal with a 90gph powerhead, as that is working fine. I may try the UP Aqua again in the future, but for now I'm sticking with the internal diffuser.

I tried the idea of turning off the controller (and therefore the gas) overnight, on a timer, and having it start again an hour before the lights came back on. But the PH jumped up to 7.7 by the time it turned on again, causing it to spend all day trying to bring it down again. I had to turn the bubble rate back up to get the PH to come down, making me think that running it 24/7 but at a slower bubble rate when the water is already at a PH of around 7.0 is probably more efficient than turning it off at night and having to re-build up the CO2 in the water each day. But that's just a thought at this point, I'd have to actually do some tests and track numbers to see for certain one way or the other.

I just got my drop checker. I'm putting it together shortly. (wow is it small - I thought it would be much larger than it is).

Thanks for the feedback and ideas for everyone.

As to pressure for the UP Aqua - my Carbon Doser's guage only goes to 15PSI. So I couldn't even measure a higher pressure. One weird thing too, the Aqua Medic 500 indicates it operates at 1.5 bar +/- 5 bar. Which is just retarded. I've got it operating at 1.5PSI, very clearly working well, which is a pittance of the pressure they're asking for (and +/- 5 bars?! wtf?)

 

[20cc]

This isn't true at all. The water probably spends only a few seconds in the tubing between leaving the filter and leaving the outflow, much too little time to completely dissolve. There's also a in-tank version of the diffusor that works just fine.

so your saying that if you put the diffuser one spot and then move it farther away the diffusion will be the same regardless of distance to output?

 

[Billbug68]

I'd say, continue using the controller, and if you try the inline diffuser again, give it some time to catch up and for you to tune it. It may take several days to get it just right, but if you're using a controller you should be able to keep your ph constant as the controller would be turning co2 on and off to achieve your target value.

 

[aqua_chem]

so your saying that if you put the diffuser one spot and then move it farther away the diffusion will be the same regardless of distance to output?

Yes. The vast majority of the CO2 dissolves in the tank rather than in the lines. It the difference between 99% vs 97% of the CO2 being still in gaseous form when it enters the tank.

 

[aqua_chem]

Hmm, what an interesting regulator that is. Working pressuring only goes to 15 psi, and it has an electronic solenoid with built in electronic needle valve. That certainly explains why the atomized wasn't working well. They often need 25 PSI+ to work. I would normally recommend turning up the pressure, but there is a chance that it may damage your gauge (unsure on this point).


I think it may be time to recommend a inline reactor again, since it needs low pressure and isn't in the tank.

 

[Mordachai]

He's a question for you all: I just received a drop checker (from a Chinese / HK source), which is a tiny thing, and it came with drops, but no 4dhk fluid, nor instructions).

The drops are a kind of muddy-red color. I don't have 4dhk fluid, and I don't know where one normally gets such a thing (I'm assuming that's what I need based on a quick search & youtube visit).

Can anyone recommend where to get such fluid?

Similarly, the Milwaukee controller needed 4PH and 7PH fluid to calibrate it. 7PH fluid should be easy to come by - any pure water should in fact be 7PH. But where does one get quantities of 4PH fluid (and am I correct in thinking that any distilled water is 7PH)?

 

[aqua_chem]

First off, feel free to throw away the drops that it came with. They're not actually accurate for whatever reason. You can use the low range pH test solution that should come with any complete liquid test kit for our purposes.

Second, you'll need to buy the pH solutions. 'Pure water' is technically pH 7, but water as we know it isn't pure. The process of removing other substances often lowers the pH, and any dissolved CO2 will further change it. It's simply not reliable to calibrate in the fashion. The testing solutions are buffered specifically at a given pH, such that it's very difficult to change the pH even with dissolved acids/CO2.

Milwaukee pH Calibration Fluid - Single Use Packet - Bulk Reef Supply

Finally, there is a sticky in the planted tank section about how to make 4 dKH solution on your own. Alternately, you can usually buy it somewhere.

 

[Billbug68]

He's a question for you all: I just received a drop checker (from a Chinese / HK source), which is a tiny thing, and it came with drops, but no 4dhk fluid, nor instructions).

The drops are a kind of muddy-red color. I don't have 4dhk fluid, and I don't know where one normally gets such a thing (I'm assuming that's what I need based on a quick search & youtube visit).

Can anyone recommend where to get such fluid?

Similarly, the Milwaukee controller needed 4PH and 7PH fluid to calibrate it. 7PH fluid should be easy to come by - any pure water should in fact be 7PH. But where does one get quantities of 4PH fluid (and am I correct in thinking that any distilled water is 7PH)?

You can find the 4dkh solution on eBay for cheap. Don't use the drops that came with the drop checker, use your low range ph drops. 3-4 drops along with the 4dkh.

Not sure about the calibration fluid for the controller. Google is your best friend.

EDIT: whoops, he beat me to it! ^^^