pale neon tetra

[jordzcov]

Hi guys,
One of my neon tetras is slowly losing alot of colour.


He likes to spend alot of his time inside my ornaments hiding away in the dark (and always has enjoyed hiding away in corners/plants), so I'm unsure if his loss of colour is due to spending so much time in the dark, or if there are other factors at play and there may be a different issue.
Still swims around and eats well, showing no other signs of illness, just becoming very pale.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Could be neon tetra disease, which is contagious and not treatable. As a minimum remove the fish to a quarantine tank. You dont want it dying in the tank.

 

[Colin_T]

It's not neon disease. That kills fish quickly (within a few days of showing symptoms) and they stop eating when infected.

It either has gill flukes, intestinal worms or a microsporiodian infection. Maybe even a combination of the first two (gill flukes and worms).

I would deworm all the fish and see if it helps, (see directions below). If not, then add some salt, it normally treats gill flukes and microsporidian infections.

You should feed the fish more often for the next month or two so it can build up some reserves and replace any blood it's losing due to the worms or flukes. Feed the fish 3-5 times a day and let it eat as much as possible.

Do water changes and gravel clean the substrate more often (50-75% every day or every second day) when feeding more often.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.


----------------------

DEWORMING FISH
Intestinal Worms like tapeworm and threadworms cause the fish to lose weight, continue eating and swimming normally, and they usually do a stringy white poop, but not always. Fish can do this for months and not be too badly affected. In some cases, fish with a bad worm infestation will actually gain weight and get fat and look like a pregnant guppy. This is due to the huge number of worms inside the fish.

You can use Praziquantel to treat tapeworm and gill flukes. And use Levamisole to treat thread/ round worms. If you can't find these medications, look for Flubendazole, which treats both lots of worms.

In the UK look for:
eSHa gdex contains praziquantel that treats tapeworm and gill flukes.
eSHa-ndx contains levamisole and treats thread/ round worms.
NT Labs Anti-fluke and Wormer contains flubendazole.
Kusuri wormer plus (contains flubendazole) - sold mainly for discus, comes as a powder which is quite hard to dose in smaller tanks
Sera nematol (contains emamectin)

Remove carbon from filters before treatment and increase aeration/ surface turbulence to maximise oxygen levels in the water.

You treat the fish once a week for 4 weeks. The first treatment will kill any worms in the fish. The second, third and forth treatments kill any baby worms that hatch from eggs inside the fish's digestive tract.

Treat every fish tank in the house at the same time to prevent cross contamination.

You do a 75% water change and complete gravel clean 24-48 hours after treatment. Clean the filter 24 hours after treatment too.

Do not use the 2 medications together. If you want to treat both medications in a short space of time, use Praziquantel on day one. Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate on day 2 & 3. Treat the tank with Levamisole on day 4 and do a 75% water change and gravel clean on day 5, 6 & 7 and then start with Praziquantel again on day 8.

The water changes will remove most of the medication so you don't overdose the fish the next time you treat them. The gravel cleaning will suck out any worms and eggs that have been expelled by the fish. Repeating the treatment for 3-4 doses at weekly intervals will kill any worms that hatch from eggs. At the end of the treatment you will have healthier fish.

 

[jordzcov]

Hi thanks for the advice.
it may help to know that im currently battlign with a fish in cycle (Colin i think youve already helped on my other thread https://www.aquariumadvice.com/foru...cant-get-fish-in-cycle-to-start-380284-2.html)


they had gone through a phase a few weeks ago of limited feeding when i was tryign to limit ammonia rising, may this be the cause? sadly due to the issue im havign with the cycling, i wouldnt really be able to do regular water changes at this point.


he has always been slughlty pale, and the current colouring hasnt happened over night, but it was only today i noticed how pale he actually was.

i do have aquarium salt to hand so can add in about 0.25 tsp weekly if you think thats good? im not sure on how often/what amount to add aquarium salt so have it, but never really use it

 

[jordzcov]

As of this morning, it seems the tetra is slightly "gasping". It's not struggling at the surface, but just continuously opening and closing its mouth.


Any ideas on what may be going on?

 

[Colin_T]

It's probably dying. If it has worms or gill flukes, these parasites literally suck the blood out of the fish and the fish slowly wastes away and dies from low blood levels and low blood pressure. You have 2 choices, either euthanise the fish or treat it for worms and gill flukes.

A fish in cycle has nothing to do with this, especially considering how low the ammonia and nitrite levels are in the tank.

Don't add salt to an aquarium unless you are treating for a disease. Most soft water fishes like neon tetras can't tolerate salt long term and die form kidney failure if they are exposed to sodium chloride for a long time.


---------------------

SALT

Using Salt to Treat Fish Health Issues.
For some fish diseases you can use salt (sodium chloride) to treat the ailment rather than using a chemical based medication. Salt is relatively safe and is regularly used in the aquaculture industry to treat food fish for diseases. Salt has been successfully used to treat minor fungal and bacterial infections, as well as a number of external protozoan infections. Salt alone will not treat whitespot (Ichthyophthirius) or Velvet (Oodinium) but will treat most other types of external protozoan infections in freshwater fishes. Salt can treat early stages of hole in the head disease caused by Hexamita but it needs to be done in conjunction with cleaning up the tank. Salt can also be used to treat anchor worm (Lernaea), fish lice (Argulus), gill flukes (Dactylogyrus), skin flukes (Gyrodactylus), Epistylis, Microsporidian and Spironucleus infections.

You can add rock salt (often sold as aquarium salt) swimming pool salt, or any non iodised salt (sodium chloride) to the aquarium at the dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres of water. If there is no improvement after 48 hours you can double that dose rate so there is 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

If you only have livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), goldfish or rainbowfish in the tank you can double that dose rate, so you would add 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres and if there is no improvement after 48 hours, then increase it so there is a total of 4 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur. Kidney damage is more likely to occur in fish from soft water (tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, Bettas & gouramis, loaches) that are exposed to high levels of salt for an extended period of time, and is not an issue with livebearers, rainbowfish or other salt tolerant species.

The salt will not affect the beneficial filter bacteria but the higher dose rate (4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will affect some plants and some snails. The lower dose rate (1-2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will not affect fish, plants, shrimp or snails.

After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.

If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.

When you first add salt, add the salt to a small bucket of tank water and dissolve the salt. Then slowly pour the salt water into the tank near the filter outlet. Add the salt over a couple of minutes.

 

[jordzcov]

Thanks for the help Colin. I'll give the salt application a go tonight. i think i also have parasite/de wormign medication if you think thats worth adding? if not ill stick to the salt.


I think ive only ever added it twice as i read it was good at keeping fungus and bacteria away, with each dose being about a quarter of a teaspoon.


Sadly the tetra hasnt left its cave all day which is abit concerning. so hopefully the salt will help him out.


is there anything else i should watch out for in terms of how it may have gotten in to the tank? no new stock or plants have been added, so im assuming its just a generic illness that happens? do i need to be concerned about this spreadign to others in the tank?

 

[jordzcov]

dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres of water. If there is no improvement after 48 hours you can double that dose rate so there is 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur.

After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.

If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.

.

From reading this in abit more details, im abit concerned about the amoutn of salt needed and maintaining it at that level, mainly because of the water changes needed to dilute the water, which then coutneracts the work being done to cycle the tank.


Im happy to give it a dose of of maybe 1 or 2 table sppons rather than 3 table spoons (1 per 20 l for my 60L tank), but would just have to leave it at that maybe and see how it goes?

 

[Colin_T]

you either use salt at the recommended dose (1-2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres of water), or don't use it at all. Lower dose rates do nothing to kill the microscopic organisms in the water.

Depending on what the medication is that you have for deworming fish, that would possibly be the first choice, assuming you have some on hand.

 

[jordzcov]

As a quick update, the trata was looking a bit ragdoll-ish this morning and would just briefly lie at the bottom, or just drift in the current. I put him in a box with some food to get him to eat, his gills are going a bit rapid, but he began to swim around more so put him back with the others. I've included a picture of the medication I have to hand if you think any would help. Any advice on what may be going on?

 

[Colin_T]

I have no idea what's in those medications. Do they have ingredients listed on the packaging or bottle?

Get a deworming medication like Levamisole or Flubendazole and deworm them all. See post #3 for instructions on deworming fish.

Feed them more often until they are dewormed so the extra food will help them produce more blood and hopefully live long enough for you to treat them.

 

[jordzcov]

It's probably dying. If it has worms or gill flukes, these parasites literally suck the blood out of the fish and the fish slowly wastes away and dies from low blood levels and low blood pressure. You have 2 choices, either euthanise the fish or treat it for worms and gill flukes.

A fish in cycle has nothing to do with this, especially considering how low the ammonia and nitrite levels are in the tank.

Don't add salt to an aquarium unless you are treating for a disease. Most soft water fishes like neon tetras can't tolerate salt long term and die form kidney failure if they are exposed to sodium chloride for a long time.


---------------------

SALT

Using Salt to Treat Fish Health Issues.
For some fish diseases you can use salt (sodium chloride) to treat the ailment rather than using a chemical based medication. Salt is relatively safe and is regularly used in the aquaculture industry to treat food fish for diseases. Salt has been successfully used to treat minor fungal and bacterial infections, as well as a number of external protozoan infections. Salt alone will not treat whitespot (Ichthyophthirius) or Velvet (Oodinium) but will treat most other types of external protozoan infections in freshwater fishes. Salt can treat early stages of hole in the head disease caused by Hexamita but it needs to be done in conjunction with cleaning up the tank. Salt can also be used to treat anchor worm (Lernaea), fish lice (Argulus), gill flukes (Dactylogyrus), skin flukes (Gyrodactylus), Epistylis, Microsporidian and Spironucleus infections.

You can add rock salt (often sold as aquarium salt) swimming pool salt, or any non iodised salt (sodium chloride) to the aquarium at the dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres of water. If there is no improvement after 48 hours you can double that dose rate so there is 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

If you only have livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), goldfish or rainbowfish in the tank you can double that dose rate, so you would add 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres and if there is no improvement after 48 hours, then increase it so there is a total of 4 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur. Kidney damage is more likely to occur in fish from soft water (tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, Bettas & gouramis, loaches) that are exposed to high levels of salt for an extended period of time, and is not an issue with livebearers, rainbowfish or other salt tolerant species.

The salt will not affect the beneficial filter bacteria but the higher dose rate (4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will affect some plants and some snails. The lower dose rate (1-2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will not affect fish, plants, shrimp or snails.

After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.

If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.

When you first add salt, add the salt to a small bucket of tank water and dissolve the salt. Then slowly pour the salt water into the tank near the filter outlet. Add the salt over a couple of minutes.

Hi Colin. i didnt seem to have any deworming meds after all, so plan to go to the store tomorrow to get some. in the emantime i did a dose of Salt treatment as you suggested, but i just have a quick question.


So, i did 1 table spoon dose on 14/10, and have done 3x20% water changes since. i saw you then said unless i do the correct dosage, its pointless. as a result, i added 2 tablespoon dose today.


Question - will the 3 water changes have extracted the 1 dose of salt, or should i assume theres 3 doses in there now (which is what i needed for a 60L tank based on your comment.


Question 2 - you mentioned i need to maintain the level of salt when doign a water change, so how much salt is needed to be added back in after each water change?

 

[Colin_T]

Did you add a heaped tablespoon of salt or a level tablespoon of salt?
It should be 1 or 2 heaped tablespoons of salt for every 20 litres (5 gallons) of water.

The three x 20% water changes would have reduced the salt by about 40%. So if you added 2 heaped tablespoons of salt on top of that, if would be a bit high. However, it's not extreme. As long as the fish aren't showing signs of stress (gasping, nervous, not eating), I would leave it for a week and then do a water change.

When you do a water change, you add salt to the new water before adding that water to the aquarium. If you are using 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres in the tank, and you change 20 litres of water, you add 2 heaped tablespoons of salt to the 20 litres of new water before adding it to the tank.

Just treat the new water with the same dose rate you used in the tank.
eg: 1 or 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres.

If you have a 20 litre bucket, it's 1 or 2 heaped tablespoons per bucket, depending on the dose rate in the tank.
If you have a 10 litre bucket, it's half that.

 

[jordzcov]

Did you add a heaped tablespoon of salt or a level tablespoon of salt?
It should be 1 or 2 heaped tablespoons of salt for every 20 litres (5 gallons) of water.

The three x 20% water changes would have reduced the salt by about 40%. So if you added 2 heaped tablespoons of salt on top of that, if would be a bit high. However, it's not extreme. As long as the fish aren't showing signs of stress (gasping, nervous, not eating), I would leave it for a week and then do a water change.

When you do a water change, you add salt to the new water before adding that water to the aquarium. If you are using 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres in the tank, and you change 20 litres of water, you add 2 heaped tablespoons of salt to the 20 litres of new water before adding it to the tank.

Just treat the new water with the same dose rate you used in the tank.
eg: 1 or 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres.

If you have a 20 litre bucket, it's 1 or 2 heaped tablespoons per bucket, depending on the dose rate in the tank.
If you have a 10 litre bucket, it's half that.

Thats great, Thanks for the knowledge! ill just use the rough guide of a 20% / 20L water change, will then require 2 doses back.
I did a decent size table spoon, but wouldnt say heaped, so im assuming the levels are hopefully just under the dangerous threshold.


The tetra has begun looking very fragile, often doing the whole "looks dead but will then move when you touch them", to sitting at the bottom, to swiming around fine.
I took your advice and went to the store today to get soem meds, and got some anti parastie meds (https://www.fishkeeper.co.uk/aquacare-anti-parasite-100ml) (will attach some photos below if it also helps.
They did have a different one (https://www.fishkeeper.co.uk/aquacare-anti-fluke-wormer-20ml) but they mentioned this may be more of a preventer than a fixer.
Does this seem the right med/choice to you?


Now that ive got the meds in (and fingers crossed they work) would you recommend not adding any more salt and just lettign that decrease with my water changes?

 

[Colin_T]

You want the anti fluke & wormer medication. It contains flubendazole, which treats intestinal worms.

The anti parasite medication contains copper and only treats external protozoan parasites like white spot, costia, etc. It will do nothing to help with intestinal worms.

 

[jordzcov]

Really? That's annoying because they both reference flukes so I asked which is best. They said the one I bought was a cure, while the other was more of a preventer.


I can try to go pick up the other treatment tomorrow, but would I then need to do a 100% water change to prevent mixing treatments.

 

[Colin_T]

Flubendazole treats thread and tape worms in fish and will cure the fish of any parasitic intestinal worms and worm larvae that hatch from eggs inside the fish. Deworming medications need to be used several times (3 times is good) at weekly intervals so they kill any baby worms they hatch from eggs in the fish. The deworming medications only kill the worms and do not affect the worm eggs. So a second and usually third treatment are recommended to kill any baby worms that hatch from eggs. If the directions on the packet say to use it once every 2 weeks, then follow that but it should be done at least 2 (and preferably 3) times.

Copper is used to treat external protozoan parasites and will kill any white spot, velvet, Costia, Chilodonella or Trichodina on the outside of the fish.

Intestinal worms and protozoa are completely different organisms. The protozoa are single celled parasites that move through the water looking for a host fish to attach themselves to. They bite the fish's skin and drink blood.

Intestinal worms are multi-celled organisms that live in the fish's digestive tract (intestine) and drink blood through the intestinal wall.

You need different medications to treat the different diseases.

 

[jordzcov]

Hi Colin,
In short, I wasn't able to use the second medication as the tank already had both aquarium salt and one does of meds in (which contained copper and was told really shouldn't be mixed)
Basically, the fish in question is now pretty much spending it's time laying at the bottom, but still in an upright position, having a short swim, but then laying on plants/the base again.is there still a chance of recovery at this stage?

Just wondering when best to draw the line and cull the tetra or to continue seeing if the meds/salt will help.

I want to give him a fighting chance/se if the meds work, but obviously don't want it suffering if there's no chance of coming back from this point?

 

[Colin_T]

As a general rule, if a fish is still eating and it can swim, there is hope. If the fish is eating well but can't swim properly any more, then it is on its way out and you can either try deworming it now/ today (do a huge water change first), or euthanise it.

Once a fish stops eating or can't swim properly, then it's time to euthanise.

 

[jordzcov]

Yea sadly it doesn't look like it's eating much, mainly due to the lack of swimming, it's as if it's looking for food at the bottom rather than swimming to the top for it.
I have a small pregnancy box that I could put him in with a bit of food to see if it takes, or is this just dragging it out for him?