To get to the meat of my question please skip to the
"THIS IS MY BIG QUESTION"
and
So heres a bunch more newbie questions:
sections below.
Some people need/want more detail though and I'm a rambler so that's what all the text between here and there is. I think I've covered just about the whole story so I don't have to go back and forth with extra questions (I hope!)
You can read my intro in the new member forum here: It's short compared to this post.
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f59/new-to-the-knowledgeable-fish-keeper-club-251139.html
Basically I've had fish tanks off and on for 20 years and really never looked into what the heck I was doing.
SO...
This winter we had a heater issue and had a total tank wipe out when temps dropped. I decided I wanted some new "exotic" fish and real plants this time and just wanted to really redo the whole thing.
We miss Pleco though.
Anyhoo I actually got off my butt and decided to do things right and READ first. (well okay not FIRST FIRST... but "before fish" first.)
FIRST FIRST:
We did a complete clean out. 30 gallon tank BTW and when I say "complete clean out" I mean we emptied it of water and rocks, rinsed off the rocks and put everything back and filled it up with water again. We installed the new heater, new filter (we had a waterfall one which I hated so we got a canister like the one we use on our patio pond that I love.) We also bought a bunch of plants when we were looking to see what kinds of fish the pet store had because they were "on sale" as they were in tubes and starting to look sad and had to be cleared out ASAP. (Let's call this obvious mistake #1) and then we got some fun looking bamboo too (Let's call this obvious mistake #2) So then we planted all these plants and started up the filter and turned the heater on and then just did some fun web searching of compatible fish and picked out what we wanted and then cut back to what we wanted - what we didn't have space for + some unbeknownst to us snails that hitched a ride on the bamboo.
TO BE CONTINUED...
OBVIOUS MISTAKE #1:
I kind of assumed any plants we bought in the fish section of the pet store would be stuff you bury in the gravel and it'll be good. Turns out the majority of the plants we bought have to have their tops out of the water. *sigh* Anyhow we just through some gravel into a "breeder float divider" thing I had put a couple of hooks to hold it up and voila! we now have a lovely group of plants poking up out of the tank. Not what I wanted but I've got it now!
OM#2 - THE BAMBOO:
Okay so I had a little tiff with the salesgirl at my local petstore that sells fish. (She probably had no idea I was mad at her.)
SIDE QUESTION: Does LFS also cover major chain pet stores that sell fish? or is that just for local aquatics stores?
Anyhoo so I asked salesgirl about the snails. I could tell they had little snails in most of their tanks and since the tanks are connected I was pretty sure bamboo tank had it's share. It also had big ol mystery snails so it was hard to spot any little guys. I wanted to know if the little guys would eat all of my tank plants. (All of which up to this point were guaranteed snail free.) and SHE made a remark about the "OTHER" girls maybe doing something like that but that SHE knew better than to send along snails. - Pet peeves include people who bad mouth their coworkers or other customers to me. It's unprofessional AND as this was my LFS? I had talked to plenty of the "OTHER" girls and never had an issue. Anyway I went ahead an although VERYYYYYY leery went ahead and listened to her (Mistake #3)
CONTINUED:
So we had our tank running, heater on, plants planted etc. We picked out our fish (just on paper), and were reading up on nitrogen cycles, and fish less cycling (which we decided to do.) I read up on doing a fish less with plants (since I kind of got ahead of myself) and found it is wasn't going to be a problem. We were just waiting for our test kit, magnet scrubby, water conditioner stuff, bubbler etc. to arrive. I didn't figure letting the tank run while we waited would hurt (in fact I figured with the plants in there and a pinch of food plus the rocks although rinsed were probably still fairly seeded from the last tank that it might just be beneficial and make our wait time seem less!) and just before everything arrived that's when I finally spotted the snails.
Now what?
So back I come to search the forums trying to find out what I can do about these things, are they going to eat all my plants, what should I do??? It seems pretty POV related. People who don't mind em don't mind em and people who do desperately try to destroy them. I figured well, why not? The more varied the species the merrier in my book. BUT I did decide I didn't want them becoming TOO much so I decided to get an assassin snail. I actually (despite being told they didn't carry them by the website) found them at a Not soLFS (but still within an hours drive) and was able to bring one home! YAY! (Mistake #... what are we up to? right, 4) and I think he might be dying.
COINCIDENCE?
So we arrive home from the NSLFS with Gary in hand (well a bag in the hand) and there on the porch are delivery boxes YAY! So we let Gary's bag float for a bit and after 15 minutes or so we dropped him into the tank (Mistake #5 - you know for trying to do this right this time I still am managing to really screw things up!) I now know about adding water from OUR tank in to help adjust not only the temp but Ph also. Poor thing. Anyway I read up on how to test everything and we test the tank that night. (That was kind of like a fun science experiment!)
MY TANK READINGS
Ph 7.8-8.0 (I couldn't tell which)
0 Ammonia
0 Nitrite
40? Nitrate (again hard to tell)
We also tested the aquaponics experiment and it had a really high Ph too (but it had ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings.)
So out of curiosity (since what I've read about controlling Ph is to do a PWC) I tested our water which... maybe unsurprisingly was also high.
THE BIG QUESTION*
We wondered if there was a way to bring the Ph down without adding chemicals as we'll have to bring the Ph down in the aquaponics experiment and that is going to [hopefully] grow food that we'll be eating. If I can't consume whatever I'm adding to bring down the Ph, I can't use it. Any suggestions/ideas?
I do have a couple more questions though...
Skimmers please skip to "Here's a bunch more newbie questions" below
So the next day [this morning] I started adding ammonia to my tank. But before I did I wondered
Side question
How far before testing should we be adding the PRIME? Can we do it after testing levels? Will it interfere with our readings? Do we really "NEED" it? We ARE NOT ON MUNICIPAL WATER! Our water comes from a well. I read we should even so for heavy metals (which is why we have it in the first place) but I'm wondering how necessary that really is? Especially considering I don't think we can use this in the aquaponics system...
Because I had 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 40 nitrates on my first reading I figured I already have nitrosomes? (I think that's the right one, I'm not going to check right this second.) and I don't want to add too much ammonia if that's true so I was aiming for ~2ppm. I read an estimate of 2-3 drops of ammonia per 5 gallons. So with a 30 gallon tank I figured 9 drops would be a safe starting place to try to hit 2 (rather than 5ppm). I did the math on my tank vs. GPH filtering for wait time then added my 9 drops waited 15 minutes and tested again. I was at .5ppm so I added another 9 drops, waited 15 minutes and tested again. This time I was at 1.0ppm so now I've established a pretty good drop ratio for my tank... added 18 more waited 15min and sure enough hit my ~2ppm goal. That's when I noticed Gary doesn't look like he has moved.
Which is why I quickly signed up instead of just perusing the forums to ask about bringing down the Ph is a human-consumably safe way. Since the other snails were just appearing and had been in the tank for uhm... a week? I can't remember honestly! but since they appeared while we were just waiting for our test kit and stuff to arrive I kind of figured the tank environment was OKAY for snails. (mistake #6?) So of course I checked, saw assassin snails recommended ph below 7.5 and thought dear lord I've killed Gary!!!
I went and poked him just now though and he's actually cruising around the tank. The associate at the Not soLFS said he's survive the cycle process that they were hardy. (That's why we went ahead and brought him home.) But then again, the associate seemed totally disgusted when I mentioned we were fishless cycling and told me I was still going to lose at least half of my fish and adding ammonia to my tank to "FORCE CYCLE" it wasn't going to make a difference and that I should just buy a couple of cheap fish I didn't care about and "do it right". Then he proceeded to talk about some other customer he had who was doing a fishless cycle but was being a b!&%# about it (and he used the actual word) and that she was an idiot and he's sure she lost 1/4 of her fish AT LEAST anyway and he told her she could buy her fish elsewhere from now on that he wasn't going to sell to her anymore. I couldn't wait to get out of there and am SO glad that's not my LFS! The guy didn't seem to really know or understand how fishless cycling worked and he was so ANGRY I wasn't going to even try to explain that "cheap fish" or drops of ammonia - either way is going to grow the necessary bacteria. But ammonia won't be cruel to "cheap fish" that have often been the bedrock of all my tanks since early childhood. (RIP Big Fish my "feeder" gold fish that lived 5 years!)
Not to mention they are living breathing creatures... how much they cost doesn't change that!
So heres a bunch more newbie questions:
Will Gary be okay? Will the snails eat all my plants. Should I get more Assassins? What kind of plants should I plant in the tank? (I want ones that go under the gravel and don't need leaves poking out at the top. I don't have any idea what the names of the ones we have are (except the water onion bulbs which are actually going to be too big for our tank) Mistake #7 Will the frogs be okay? Is the tank too deep for them? How heavily can we plant the tank? I'd like to have it pretty heavy on the sides and back but clear in the front and middle. Do I talk too much? LOL (I know that's a yes) Did I miss anything else important that I should have asked?
Oh and here's the list of my fish and a photoshop (as close to scale as I could) rendition of our tank (minus the snails as they showed themselves later.) I'm not sure I know how to add the picture here, but I'll try:
Fish:
3 guppies (blue)
5 tiger barbs
2 dwarf frogs (no claws)
3 otocinclus
5 neon tetras
"THIS IS MY BIG QUESTION"
and
So heres a bunch more newbie questions:
sections below.
Some people need/want more detail though and I'm a rambler so that's what all the text between here and there is. I think I've covered just about the whole story so I don't have to go back and forth with extra questions (I hope!)
You can read my intro in the new member forum here: It's short compared to this post.
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f59/new-to-the-knowledgeable-fish-keeper-club-251139.html
Basically I've had fish tanks off and on for 20 years and really never looked into what the heck I was doing.
SO...
This winter we had a heater issue and had a total tank wipe out when temps dropped. I decided I wanted some new "exotic" fish and real plants this time and just wanted to really redo the whole thing.
We miss Pleco though.
Anyhoo I actually got off my butt and decided to do things right and READ first. (well okay not FIRST FIRST... but "before fish" first.)
FIRST FIRST:
We did a complete clean out. 30 gallon tank BTW and when I say "complete clean out" I mean we emptied it of water and rocks, rinsed off the rocks and put everything back and filled it up with water again. We installed the new heater, new filter (we had a waterfall one which I hated so we got a canister like the one we use on our patio pond that I love.) We also bought a bunch of plants when we were looking to see what kinds of fish the pet store had because they were "on sale" as they were in tubes and starting to look sad and had to be cleared out ASAP. (Let's call this obvious mistake #1) and then we got some fun looking bamboo too (Let's call this obvious mistake #2) So then we planted all these plants and started up the filter and turned the heater on and then just did some fun web searching of compatible fish and picked out what we wanted and then cut back to what we wanted - what we didn't have space for + some unbeknownst to us snails that hitched a ride on the bamboo.
TO BE CONTINUED...
OBVIOUS MISTAKE #1:
I kind of assumed any plants we bought in the fish section of the pet store would be stuff you bury in the gravel and it'll be good. Turns out the majority of the plants we bought have to have their tops out of the water. *sigh* Anyhow we just through some gravel into a "breeder float divider" thing I had put a couple of hooks to hold it up and voila! we now have a lovely group of plants poking up out of the tank. Not what I wanted but I've got it now!
OM#2 - THE BAMBOO:
Okay so I had a little tiff with the salesgirl at my local petstore that sells fish. (She probably had no idea I was mad at her.)
SIDE QUESTION: Does LFS also cover major chain pet stores that sell fish? or is that just for local aquatics stores?
Anyhoo so I asked salesgirl about the snails. I could tell they had little snails in most of their tanks and since the tanks are connected I was pretty sure bamboo tank had it's share. It also had big ol mystery snails so it was hard to spot any little guys. I wanted to know if the little guys would eat all of my tank plants. (All of which up to this point were guaranteed snail free.) and SHE made a remark about the "OTHER" girls maybe doing something like that but that SHE knew better than to send along snails. - Pet peeves include people who bad mouth their coworkers or other customers to me. It's unprofessional AND as this was my LFS? I had talked to plenty of the "OTHER" girls and never had an issue. Anyway I went ahead an although VERYYYYYY leery went ahead and listened to her (Mistake #3)
CONTINUED:
So we had our tank running, heater on, plants planted etc. We picked out our fish (just on paper), and were reading up on nitrogen cycles, and fish less cycling (which we decided to do.) I read up on doing a fish less with plants (since I kind of got ahead of myself) and found it is wasn't going to be a problem. We were just waiting for our test kit, magnet scrubby, water conditioner stuff, bubbler etc. to arrive. I didn't figure letting the tank run while we waited would hurt (in fact I figured with the plants in there and a pinch of food plus the rocks although rinsed were probably still fairly seeded from the last tank that it might just be beneficial and make our wait time seem less!) and just before everything arrived that's when I finally spotted the snails.
Now what?
So back I come to search the forums trying to find out what I can do about these things, are they going to eat all my plants, what should I do??? It seems pretty POV related. People who don't mind em don't mind em and people who do desperately try to destroy them. I figured well, why not? The more varied the species the merrier in my book. BUT I did decide I didn't want them becoming TOO much so I decided to get an assassin snail. I actually (despite being told they didn't carry them by the website) found them at a Not soLFS (but still within an hours drive) and was able to bring one home! YAY! (Mistake #... what are we up to? right, 4) and I think he might be dying.
COINCIDENCE?
So we arrive home from the NSLFS with Gary in hand (well a bag in the hand) and there on the porch are delivery boxes YAY! So we let Gary's bag float for a bit and after 15 minutes or so we dropped him into the tank (Mistake #5 - you know for trying to do this right this time I still am managing to really screw things up!) I now know about adding water from OUR tank in to help adjust not only the temp but Ph also. Poor thing. Anyway I read up on how to test everything and we test the tank that night. (That was kind of like a fun science experiment!)
MY TANK READINGS
Ph 7.8-8.0 (I couldn't tell which)
0 Ammonia
0 Nitrite
40? Nitrate (again hard to tell)
We also tested the aquaponics experiment and it had a really high Ph too (but it had ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings.)
So out of curiosity (since what I've read about controlling Ph is to do a PWC) I tested our water which... maybe unsurprisingly was also high.
THE BIG QUESTION*
We wondered if there was a way to bring the Ph down without adding chemicals as we'll have to bring the Ph down in the aquaponics experiment and that is going to [hopefully] grow food that we'll be eating. If I can't consume whatever I'm adding to bring down the Ph, I can't use it. Any suggestions/ideas?
I do have a couple more questions though...
Skimmers please skip to "Here's a bunch more newbie questions" below
So the next day [this morning] I started adding ammonia to my tank. But before I did I wondered
Side question
How far before testing should we be adding the PRIME? Can we do it after testing levels? Will it interfere with our readings? Do we really "NEED" it? We ARE NOT ON MUNICIPAL WATER! Our water comes from a well. I read we should even so for heavy metals (which is why we have it in the first place) but I'm wondering how necessary that really is? Especially considering I don't think we can use this in the aquaponics system...
Because I had 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 40 nitrates on my first reading I figured I already have nitrosomes? (I think that's the right one, I'm not going to check right this second.) and I don't want to add too much ammonia if that's true so I was aiming for ~2ppm. I read an estimate of 2-3 drops of ammonia per 5 gallons. So with a 30 gallon tank I figured 9 drops would be a safe starting place to try to hit 2 (rather than 5ppm). I did the math on my tank vs. GPH filtering for wait time then added my 9 drops waited 15 minutes and tested again. I was at .5ppm so I added another 9 drops, waited 15 minutes and tested again. This time I was at 1.0ppm so now I've established a pretty good drop ratio for my tank... added 18 more waited 15min and sure enough hit my ~2ppm goal. That's when I noticed Gary doesn't look like he has moved.
Which is why I quickly signed up instead of just perusing the forums to ask about bringing down the Ph is a human-consumably safe way. Since the other snails were just appearing and had been in the tank for uhm... a week? I can't remember honestly! but since they appeared while we were just waiting for our test kit and stuff to arrive I kind of figured the tank environment was OKAY for snails. (mistake #6?) So of course I checked, saw assassin snails recommended ph below 7.5 and thought dear lord I've killed Gary!!!
I went and poked him just now though and he's actually cruising around the tank. The associate at the Not soLFS said he's survive the cycle process that they were hardy. (That's why we went ahead and brought him home.) But then again, the associate seemed totally disgusted when I mentioned we were fishless cycling and told me I was still going to lose at least half of my fish and adding ammonia to my tank to "FORCE CYCLE" it wasn't going to make a difference and that I should just buy a couple of cheap fish I didn't care about and "do it right". Then he proceeded to talk about some other customer he had who was doing a fishless cycle but was being a b!&%# about it (and he used the actual word) and that she was an idiot and he's sure she lost 1/4 of her fish AT LEAST anyway and he told her she could buy her fish elsewhere from now on that he wasn't going to sell to her anymore. I couldn't wait to get out of there and am SO glad that's not my LFS! The guy didn't seem to really know or understand how fishless cycling worked and he was so ANGRY I wasn't going to even try to explain that "cheap fish" or drops of ammonia - either way is going to grow the necessary bacteria. But ammonia won't be cruel to "cheap fish" that have often been the bedrock of all my tanks since early childhood. (RIP Big Fish my "feeder" gold fish that lived 5 years!)
Not to mention they are living breathing creatures... how much they cost doesn't change that!
So heres a bunch more newbie questions:
Will Gary be okay? Will the snails eat all my plants. Should I get more Assassins? What kind of plants should I plant in the tank? (I want ones that go under the gravel and don't need leaves poking out at the top. I don't have any idea what the names of the ones we have are (except the water onion bulbs which are actually going to be too big for our tank) Mistake #7 Will the frogs be okay? Is the tank too deep for them? How heavily can we plant the tank? I'd like to have it pretty heavy on the sides and back but clear in the front and middle. Do I talk too much? LOL (I know that's a yes) Did I miss anything else important that I should have asked?
Oh and here's the list of my fish and a photoshop (as close to scale as I could) rendition of our tank (minus the snails as they showed themselves later.) I'm not sure I know how to add the picture here, but I'll try:
Fish:
3 guppies (blue)
5 tiger barbs
2 dwarf frogs (no claws)
3 otocinclus
5 neon tetras