PH Struggles

[Kaxxian]

Forgive the length, I want to make sure you get the whole picture here.

I’m going to start by saying I don’t have any fish yet, so don’t fret!

I’m brand new to this hobby and I've got a 10 gallon tank that I’m still in the process of cycling. The plan is to get 1 male betta. I’ve got a heater and a sponge filter, fake plants and a couple decorations/caves. Plenty of places to hide and relax while still having room to swim around. I’m not super interested in getting real plants, I understand the benefit and that was the original plan, but I also know keeping plants alive has never been my strong suit and I’d rather get comfy caring for a fish before I add raising plants to the mix.

The water in my area is very hard and other fish keepers in my area have told me that no amount of conditioner or other water treatments will make tap water here safe for fish (in their experience) and that they just use water from the grocery store, so I got myself some 5 gallon jugs to refill as necessary, and put in the conditioner once I get them home so they’ll be prepped come water changing day. (I have a second heater and a separate clean water bucket to prepare in advance as well.)

When I first started testing the water, the PH was 6.0. The many articles, books, forums, etc. I’ve read say that the water is best for bettas at 7.0. Of course I’ve seen some that say 6.5-7.5 is a safe range, some say you can go all the way to 8, and down to 5.5. I’d like to keep it in the middle and in as healthy a condition as possible.

So what I did was buy some crushed coral from Aquarium Co-op, and the description says that they use the whole 1 lb for every 10 gallons, so I used the whole 1 lb. This brought the PH up a lot, so I ended up buying “PH down”, which dropped it too low, and “PH up” shot it too far back up. I played with those for about a week, trying to find a happy medium before sitting down to do more research and a bunch of articles say that the most important thing is to keep the parameters stable so I stopped playing with chemicals and just waited it out to see where the PH would hang out on its own.

A couple weeks later, the nitrogen cycle is going strong, and the PH has been holding at 7.8 for about a week - (which some say is fine, some say it’s too alkaline, but betta’s are hardy etc.) Then came the water change - again, the water I’m starting with is 6.0. I got it to 6.5 with a couple doses of “PH up” (and gave it a couple days to settle) then I did about a 15-20% change and the next day when I checked, the PH was 7.0. By the next day, it was back up to 7.8. To my understanding this is going to be devastating to a fish, and obviously I can’t just avoid water changes.

As of today, it has been 5 days since the water change and the PH is holding steady at 7.8.

I have been adding 10-20 drops of ammonia into the water to keep the nitrogen cycle steady with 2 ppm ammonia being the highest, and it’s not *quite* ready, as I usually still have .25 ppm ammonia by the next day, 0 Nitrite and 40 Nitrate last I checked (one of my testing tubes broke and I’m waiting for a replacement to get here so I stopped testing Nitrate the last 3 days.) From what I’ve read, those can effect the PH as well.

So at long last, after trying to get a solid answer from google and failing, here comes my question. Is 7.8 PH going to be safe for my future Betta? Some sites say yes, others say no and I really just kind of need a general consensus.

7.8 is high but stable. If it's not okay, how can I lower it safely while still maintaining stability? If I can leave it at 7.8 then I need to figure out what to do with the water in the jugs since it’s way too low and causes a serious shift during water changes. I’ve seen API’s “Proper PH 7.5” powder, would using that in the jugs be okay or any sort of useful?

I’ve considered taking all the substrate out and taking out as much of the coral as I can, and seeing what happens, or just completely replacing the substrate rather than drive myself insane picking white rocks out of the blue and black rocks. I also have Indian Almond Leaves on the way to help lower PH, but from my understanding, with the coral in the way, they won’t be super effective? I also don’t know how helpful they’ll be with keeping it stable, which is the ultimate goal.

If whatever I do means I have to start cycling all over again, then I have to start over, I’m not against doing that.

I just really want to get some more experienced advice for my particular situation rather than keep going down the rabbit hole of making it too high or low and trying to figure it out on my own.

Thanks so much in advance! Heck, just thanks for reading all of that.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Keeping pH stable is far more important than keeping it what you might consider ideal. Chemically altering pH is just going to cause swings which is what you are trying to avoid and products like pH up, pH down, etc just cause more problems than they solve. Adding something that raises pH and then something else to lower it hoping it will somehow balance out where you want it just seems a frustrating endeavour.

pH of 7.8 is high but people all over the world keep bettas in higher than ideal pH.

1 pound of crushed coral seems a lot. I presume you mixed it in with the substrate. A different solution would be to use half a cup of crushed coral per 20 gallons, put it in a media bag and add it into your filtration. This shouldnt cause such a big rise but the only way to find out is to try it.

You could add baking soda to your water in an amount that gets your pH to where you want, and then proportionately add baking soda to your new water before you do your water changes.

If you are worried about water changes lowering your pH, and then over time as the crushed coral disolves raising it again, then more frequent but smaller water changes are going to help. 1 betta in 10 gallons isnt going to need a lot of water changes, maybe 25% every 2 weeks. So maybe a 10 to 15% water change every 4 or 5 days is going to be good, and a 15% water change isnt going to cause much of a swing.

If the bottled water you are buying is acidic it might not be the best water to buy. If its as low as 6 it might not be great to drink. If you are buying water anyway then buying RO water might be worthwhile and then remineralising it to whatever parameters you want. You can then do away with the crushed coral.

Whatever you do i would find what works for you and stick with that. Dont add crushed coral to raise pH and then do something else to lower it. If you go the RO or baking soda route then remove the crushed coral.

Another solution is to keep fish that prefer your water parameters rather than trying to force your water to the parameters the fish prefer.

Removing and replacing the substrate will set your cycle back. It probably wont crash it completely because a significant number of the microbes you have grown will be in your filtration. So as long as you don't allow your filtration to dry out you shouldn't be starting from scratch.

Unfortunately you wont get a consensus of opinion in the hobby. Some people will tell you that bettas are fine at high pH, based on many people doing that. Some people will give you the ideal water parameters and say the fish will do better at these levels. They are both correct based on their own experience. The only real way for you to find out what works for you is to try it.

I live in an area that has fairly hard water and a pH north of 7, and thats not ideal for some fish like tetras, but people round here do keep those fish just fine. I know people that keep discus in hard water which is considered a big no no. The only issue they have is their discus dont breed, which is a similar situation i get with my tetras.

 

[Caliban07]

I agree with Aiken. Don’t alter the pH.

One thing about tap water is is that it contains a lot of carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide is acidic but it leaves the water as a gas. Measuring your tap water after 24 hours will give you your true tap water pH. It might not be as acidic as you think.

The crushed coral has brought your pH to around 7.8 which seems about right. The carbonate hardness of the water will buffer against any pH drops now and so it is very unlikely you will get any other reading except for 7.8. This is now your tanks stable pH for as long as you have the crushed coral.

So the question is, is pH7.8 ok for a Betta. My answer is the same as Aiken. Many people will keep this fish at varying pH levels. Try it and see. Fish are MUCH more sensitive to harmful nitrogen such as ammonia and low oxygen levels. Keeping stress to a minimum and feeding well will allow the fish to maintain a good immune system and this is much more important.

Good luck

 

[Aiken Drum]

The crushed coral has brought your pH to around 7.8 which seems about right. The carbonate hardness of the water will buffer against any pH drops now and so it is very unlikely you will get any other reading except for 7.8. This is now your tanks stable pH for as long as you have the crushed coral.

Yeah. Thats somthing i hadnt considered. The carbonates/ bicarbonates that has gone into the water from the coral to raise the pH will have added carbonate hardness/ buffering capacity. So anything you subsequently do to try and lower the pH again will be largely pointless as it will just be working against the increased buffering.

 

[Andy Sager]

The other posts addressed your Ph matters so I will just add this: In South Florida, the water is rock hard with a Ph of over 8.2 and I was breeding Bettas like crazy so hard water does not effect them. In NJ, where the water was soft and acidic, I was also breeding Bettas with no issues in that water so the fish has a high range of acceptable water parameters. As mentioned, STABILITY is more important than a number.

 

[Caliban07]

Yeah. Thats somthing i hadnt considered. The carbonates/ bicarbonates that has gone into the water from the coral to raise the pH will have added carbonate hardness/ buffering capacity. So anything you subsequently do to try and lower the pH again will be largely pointless as it will just be working against the increased buffering.

Yep, so long as the hobbyist doesn’t add muriatic acid it will take a long long time to decrease pH from weak acids created in an aquarium.

 

[Kaxxian]

Thanks so much for your response, mostly I'm just too anxious as this is my first fish but I really appreciate you taking the time to help explain! I did put the coral into the substrate, as you assumed.

I'll try the smaller, more frequent water changes, and see how that goes, if stability is the key, then we're good as I've got that. Much appreciated!

 

[Aiken Drum]

One thing just to be careful of is ammonia. Ammonia is much more harmful at higher pH than lower pH. For instance at a pH of 7 and a typical tropical aquarium temperature ammonia is going to be safe in excess of 4ppm. Whereas at your pH of 7.8 it will start to become toxic around 1ppm.

In a cycled tank you will see zero ammonia, but newly set up tanks often see unexpected things until they establish. Make sure you monitor water quality regularly for a while after getting your fish to make sure you dont see any ammonia spikes that would be more toxic at your higher pH than they would be at a lower pH.

If you are cycling out 2ppm ammonia in 24 hours, then a single betta in 10g shouldnt be a concern. But just keep a good eye on things to start with regardless.

 

[wikilk]

you can add catappa leaf to reduce ph level in the betta fish tank

 

[Aiken Drum]

you can add catappa leaf to reduce ph level in the betta fish tank

Adding catapa leafs wont do anything to pH. As explained in post #3 the carbonate hardness added with the crushed coral will buffer the water making any attempt to lower the pH ineffective.

 

[JJenna]

You might ask the LFS that you are going to get your betta at...what PH they keep theirs in. I heartily agree with everyone else, don't chase the PH...in a 10 gallon tank, small changes are likely to cause large swings in addition that pH fluctuates depending on time of day. My tank runs consistently at 7.8 and I have all kinds of fish in it that the recommendations say need lower pH to live. It's good to see that you are concerned about your PH and asking questions rather than just putting a fish in and be upset that it got sick and died.