Red Ludwigia Help wanted

[aqua_chem]

Those wondershells look like snail oil to me. I've never heard of them before, but they don't really seem to do anything...

You'll probably be fine to just hook up the CO2, assuming you followed the direction and weren't too yeast happy.

"Root shoots" (I like that name) won't hurt the plant. I'm not a fan of them, but it's a matter of taste. Wisteria is an absolute fiend when it comes to shooting off those roots once it gets settled in.

Finally, what kind of filter do you have hooked up?

 

[Backwater]

Those wondershells look like snail oil to me. I've never heard of them before, but they don't really seem to do anything...

You'll probably be fine to just hook up the CO2, assuming you followed the direction and weren't too yeast happy.

"Root shoots" (I like that name) won't hurt the plant. I'm not a fan of them, but it's a matter of taste. Wisteria is an absolute fiend when it comes to shooting off those roots once it gets settled in.

Finally, what kind of filter do you have hooked up?

The filters I have rare older Aquael Aqua-thrust units in all my tanks. You can click my avatar to see a bigger picture of them... In the 10gals I have 60-100GPH internal canister units with 3 stages including external bio sponge and then a canister filled with aqua cotton, bioceramics, and carbon/zeolite bag. I found a guy in North Carolina that carries left over Aquael stock here in america and it's brand new in the box... I love them. They are the "utopia" of filters. Here's another thread about them where I listed where to get them and all the pros and cons. > http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f24/easy-low-light-in-substrate-plant-219297-2.html it's the last post... let me know what you think One of my regular salesman at the LFS told me not to get them because they looked ugly... glad I didn't listen because they are a perfect blend of internal and cansiter filters and highly versitle and I perfer functionality over form in most cases... Plus, They look "SYFI" to me.

Ps. According to the owner in N.C. he says Aquael keeps calling him to see if he wants to start distrobuting their newer stuff. I think it would be flipping awesome to have their nano's and newer Aquael Turbo Thrust internal canister units in the U.S. If you're in the pet supply or pet store business, give him a ring. ... tell him Jason sent you.



Also, I give you artisit liscense to use my term "root shoot" freely lolz.

Yes my wisteria is shooting roots all over the place and so is the monnieri on the horzontal growth. the lower half of the Wisteria is practically all tiny feathery root shoots. I like it, I like the natural look. I think someday if I ever figure out this whole Co2 trial by fire thing I may do biotopes ...did I spell that right ? lol. Yeah I want my little 10gals to "eventually" look like a little cube taken out of nature. If it's going to grow roots out like that anyways then it's the natrual order of things ...

 

[Backwater]

YO Aquachem! ... sorry for the late follow up. Have been busy on home front tremendously and job front has had a bad turn but I'm ok just late in updating...

So o.k. update.
10gal Wisteria tank looks very good... it's starting to really bounce back. I took two pictures of the two separate groupings. The grouping on the left is the top cuttings and those show the same type of form and growth pattern that your Wisteria was showing... the grouping on the right has a larger mixture of fat leaves and bottom pinnate cuttings but the fat leafs are starting to morph... I've been adding the API Co2 Booster and have gradually gone up to 2xs even sometimes 3xs the dose and the Wisteria Loves it.... So far so good.

Update on L. Repens 10gal.
Well I wish I could say the same news for the Repens tank but it's still struggling just a bit. The leafs are looking nice and green on the L. Repens but somehow (even ice cube water baths of new plants) i have small snails in the tank eating the leafs... I don't really want to grab a clown loach for that tank but not sure what I should do yet... also, the Rippens is looking very leggy with no leafs down the stalk.. I see little green nodes but nothing is really leafing out. I may increase lighting but I'm concerned because the Bacopa Monnieri that was all along the top developed a sort of white hair-like fungus... i'm not sure if it is a fungus on some leafs or actual rooting shooting out from the leafs but I'm leaning to fungus.

On the Co2 front, I got the Diffusers and the bottles, I now just have to pick a time to get the yeast and set it all up... and I may still hold on to the setups till I get better lighting ...

Any advice on all that ? lol
ps. thanks again and sorry for the late updates.

 

[meegosh]

I would think ice baths would do more harm than good to the plants. I always did quick bleach dips in a 1:19 ratio to kill snails. Do not buy a clown loach for snail control, especially in a 10g.

CO2 and higher intensity lighting will help your L. Repens take off. Are you sure it is snails eating the leaves and just not a nutrient deficiency (holes, yellowing, etc)?

 

[Backwater]

I would think ice baths would do more harm than good to the plants. I always did quick bleach dips in a 1:19 ratio to kill snails. Do not buy a clown loach for snail control, especially in a 10g.

CO2 and higher intensity lighting will help your L. Repens take off. Are you sure it is snails eating the leaves and just not a nutrient deficiency (holes, yellowing, etc)?

Yea... they look like snail holes cause the rest of leaf is still green. maybe lighter green cause of newer leafs but not yellow or brown .. also, I see the snails on the Repens right now as a matter of fact.. .there is one small one and one really tiny one. I have Malaysian trumpet snails in the other tanks and they were a wonderful surprise because they are very beneficial as a clean up crew and they don't eat plants only decaying leafs... I have even read it's kind of rare to find the trumpet snails so for that I think I got lucky ... but the other snails are not the trumpet snails.. they are small round beads... see photo.. i found one on a stalk but just 20min ago there was one on a leaf.

Also, I am treating with API Co2 booster right now before I set up a legit Co2 DIY and so far everything in the tank (except the Anacharis) likes the API Booster as no more mushy stalks, falling leafs and oddly enough only the Repens has the holes... I don't think they like the thicker Bacopa. When I switch over to the DIY soon I'll be able to re-plant the tank with Anacharis for Molly snacks hopefully

Also again, I am treating with SeaChem Flourish but not the excel version so the tank is getting minerals and my Nitrates are probably around 20-40 right now, Florida water is kind of hard with Nitrates I think.

Ps... so ice cube baths for 15 min is not good for plants to de-snail ? Well it obviously doesn't work that great either lol...Well, not the first time someone at Petsmart told me the wrong thing lol.

 

[Backwater]

I would think ice baths would do more harm than good to the plants. I always did quick bleach dips in a 1:19 ratio to kill snails. Do not buy a clown loach for snail control, especially in a 10g.

CO2 and higher intensity lighting will help your L. Repens take off. Are you sure it is snails eating the leaves and just not a nutrient deficiency (holes, yellowing, etc)?

Ps... separate posting so I don't loose the question in the last wall of text...

For a 1:19 ratio what is that in terms of gallons ? 2.5 gallons of water and maybe 1 tsp ? I'd like to try that the next time I buy plants.. also, you just dip them in for say 5 seconds then pull them out ?

 

[meegosh]

For the bleach dips I did (some were rather delicate species) I did a 1:19 ratio of bleach to water. Example... Add a 1 cup of bleach to 19 cups of water. Obviously you don't need 20 cups of liquid to dip a small plant in so you can scale it down to whatever size batch you need. I dipped them less than 5 seconds and then dipped into a bucket of water that was double dosed with Prime.

 

[aqua_chem]

A rule of thumb, most pest snails won't harm healthy plants. It looks like you might have an issue with either phosphates or potassium. Potassium is found in flourish, but not in the amounts needed for a high uptake tank.

As far as dips go, I would expect for an ice bath to damage the cells of a plant well beyond the superficial layer. I am a fan of hydrogen peroxide dips rather than bleach, but if you've already got a snail issue, I doubt dips will have much of an effect at all. They're really intended more as a preventative measure rather than a cure. Snails can usually be managed by controlling feeding and tank cleanliness,

 

[Backwater]

A rule of thumb, most pest snails won't harm healthy plants. It looks like you might have an issue with either phosphates or potassium. Potassium is found in flourish, but not in the amounts needed for a high uptake tank.

As far as dips go, I would expect for an ice bath to damage the cells of a plant well beyond the superficial layer. I am a fan of hydrogen peroxide dips rather than bleach, but if you've already got a snail issue, I doubt dips will have much of an effect at all. They're really intended more as a preventative measure rather than a cure. Snails can usually be managed by controlling feeding and tank cleanliness,

Those bottom leafs yes they look discolored ... I did stop using the leaf zone in lue of the Flourish so they may have the problems your talking about now with low potassium and phosphates as I believe that potassium is the main ingredient in Leaf Zone and Flourish has the other stuff... Is it safe to use both in 1-2 times a week dosing ? That's awesome if potassium is the issue cause it's easily fixable and you just helped me with that

but also, there are top leaves that are lush and green with no discoloration and they clearly look chewed on .... so in this case it may be both the snails and the potassium deficiency. You can clearly see that in the picture... or maybe i'm wrong ? Am I jumping to the wrong conclusion... I do know these holes did not appear till I started seeing snails again. What can I do (be sides a Clown Loach) to get the snails out of the tank? The tank was a little dirty with some hair algae on the filter and bio sponge but that was cleaned 2 days ago.. other than that the tank is sparkling ... 3 Ottos make a really nice cleaning crew for plants and glass and rocks. I love my Ottos

Ps. here is a picture of the green leaf with snail holes, at least that what I think they are. You can clearly see that the middle leaf is holey but for the most part, all surround leafs are intact with no holes and looking good and green. If it was major potassium or phosphate inefficiency wouldn't all or mostly all leafs be affected? some leaves have the ends abrubtly chewed off as well but you can't see that from the photos.

PSS. to be safe I'll pick up some API Leaf Zone today

 

[meegosh]

What type of lights you got on this again? Looks like all your lower leaves are dying off and new growth up top (closer to lights). Some more trimming would make those fill out more.

 

[Backwater]

What type of lights you got on this again? Looks like all your lower leaves are dying off and new growth up top (closer to lights). Some more trimming would make those fill out more.

The lights in the L. Repens tank are Sylvania Ultra-mini CFL 6500K 13watt x2 bulbs with incandescent hood.

The lights on the Wisteria is a single 15w T8 6500k Coralife Nutri Grow...

Previous attempts have been:
1. a 36" Dual t5 strip with 2x21 6700K Daylight lamps from Aqueon. That was ok but a little to short and T5 flora bulbs are too hard to find in low watt H.E (sometimes called N.H.O) ...
2. A dual 48" t5 strip with 2x28 6700k Daylight lamps from Aqueon. The Repens liked this at first but the Wisteria hated it .. it was too much light and with no Co2 injections the Wisteria experienced heavy Co2 deficiencies with browning, yellowing, cupping and falling off leafs... it almost killed the wisteria. The Repens had mushy stalks and lost all those bottom leaves .. i lost a bout 70% of the bunches of the Repens. So what your seeing is that the leaves all died off about 2.5 months ago and the Repens are just now becoming stable again with firm stalks and good top growth.
3. I tried my Dual 48" hood from my 55 just with a single 6700K H.O bulb and Wisteria got even worse.

In the end, Aqua Chem and I solved the light problem for now, or at least it's stable. I went to the bulbs mentioned first above and started treating with API Co2 Booster and Sea Chem Flourish (non-excel version) just for immediate help and in the interim till I can find the right lighting and get the DIY Co2 Setup up gowing at the same time... I have the Co2 DIY bottles and glass nano diffusers here and ready but I hit a low patch with work and waiting till work becomes steady soon before I buy the lights...

I am thinking of going for these but possible in 36in version that they make i just have to track down.
Sunlight Supply Sun Blaze T5 HO Strip Light 24 Watt 6500K 24 inch

Those are H.O fixtures so it won't be that hard to find the flora bulbs for T5 if i go with Zoo Med Flora sun... I'd like to do a 6700k for the Repens because it loved the 6700k but brown algae really likes that 6700k I found out...

I'll take suggestions on hoods or bulbs... Aquachem recommended a good 36Watt CFL U shaped inline hood and I may go with that one on the Repens because a lot of sites report that 3x or 4x the normal WPG will help the Repens really turn read.

Ps... you mentioned trimming, do you mean doing cuttings and taking the tops off and replanting or is there a way to trim the stalks to promote new leaf nodes? If you look closely they Repens dose have bright green baby nodes on each stalk segment... I was thinking of upping the lighting to 10 hours a day to promote a leafy cycle versus a flowering one at 8 hours a day

Sorry for wall of text lol. Just giving you the Cliff's Notes back story without you having to read all the posts of the thread


thanks for post .

 

[meegosh]

I've never tried a planted tank in a 10g but I hear the smaller tanks are a little different in regards to the WPG rule. I had a 96w PC light over my 30g long (36x12") and had nice reds from my l. aromatica, l. repens, and quite a few others. You are correct in the 2-3x WPG will bring out the reds, only if you have the nutrients to back them up though.

I had pressurized CO2 running at ~30ppm and autodosers which dosed the standard PPS Pro solution on that tank daily. It was quite the balancing act at first, to say the least. Brown algae wasn't a problem, it was BBA and GHA that gave me all the problems. Lots of spot treating and tweaking the lighting/co2/dosers.

As far as trimming goes, where you snip them at the stem, two new stems should grow out. This gives the plants the more bushy look and really lets them fill in. Getting into a trimming schedule really helps prevent the die off of the lower leaves if your light isn't penetrating deep enough.

For bulbs, I always used 6700k bulbs on my tanks. I just liked the look of it and my plants seemed to like it. I pretty much took the approach of try everything and see what grows the best in my tank's conditions. It's pretty cheap to get some trimmings of random stems that you can play around with and see what works. If it rots away to nothing, you are only out a couple bucks. If they grow like weeds, you can make your money back by selling a few trimmings.

 

[Backwater]

I've never tried a planted tank in a 10g but I hear the smaller tanks are a little different in regards to the WPG rule. I had a 96w PC light over my 30g long (36x12") and had nice reds from my l. aromatica, l. repens, and quite a few others. You are correct in the 2-3x WPG will bring out the reds, only if you have the nutrients to back them up though.

I had pressurized CO2 running at ~30ppm and autodosers which dosed the standard PPS Pro solution on that tank daily. It was quite the balancing act at first, to say the least. Brown algae wasn't a problem, it was BBA and GHA that gave me all the problems. Lots of spot treating and tweaking the lighting/co2/dosers.

As far as trimming goes, where you snip them at the stem, two new stems should grow out. This gives the plants the more bushy look and really lets them fill in. Getting into a trimming schedule really helps prevent the die off of the lower leaves if your light isn't penetrating deep enough.

For bulbs, I always used 6700k bulbs on my tanks. I just liked the look of it and my plants seemed to like it. I pretty much took the approach of try everything and see what grows the best in my tank's conditions. It's pretty cheap to get some trimmings of random stems that you can play around with and see what works. If it rots away to nothing, you are only out a couple bucks. If they grow like weeds, you can make your money back by selling a few trimmings.

Hi Meegosh,
Thanks for the great reply and thurough information. ..
I totally see what you mean by a balancing act... I totally get that now. It's like mixing beaker solutions in chemistry glass, just the right combination and viola! The wrong combination and boom! I can see now how the light, Co2 and Nutrients are all very co-dependent on each other for success and the whole approach is starting to set off the light bulbs. I like the playing with which combination I can use to produce the best, but unfortunately I've tried all LFS solutions so now i'm on the web orders and it feels more like I better get it right the first time now.

Also, I see what you mean on cutting the stems because I did read (and do see the effects of it in my tank) that L. Repens loves to split when cut ... it won't grow from the same shoot but from the sides of it... does that mean I can just cut a stem with no leaves or should the stem be leafed somewhat ?

I'm hoping to get the non-pressurized DIY Co2 system set up on both tanks soon. I have 90% of the supplies (I just need check valves, syringe, super clue for DIY bubble counters and the yeast) and I should be good to go soon. I also appreciate the added confirmation/information on the L. Repens liking 2-3WPG. Dr. Forster's and Smith Living Aquatic site (I think that's the name) went as far as to say a very deep red can be produced at 4WPG which leans me towards the 36W CFL 6500k over the Ripens tank and then take the two 13W 6500K CFLS and incandescent hood over to the Wisteria tank. Aquachem, believes the two 13w should be plenty for the wisteria as they don't require a lot of light and as long as Co2 and nutrients are present they should grow fine at 13W x2.

Ultimately, I'd love to find a single strip that will go across the whole shelf (it's a wall unit project) but that route seems either I have to go with a 36" fixture that won't saturate the outside edges of the tank right or go with a 48" that's just too much light for the Wisteria. I'll know soon enough once I get back on contract (IT Contract worker) and get some more moo-la to throw at the lighting

In the meant time, I'm gonna head to the store today and act on your and Aquachem's advice for possible Potassium or Phosphate deficiencies and grab some API Leaf Zone to dose with the Flourish but probably not on the same days.

Thanks again for the advice, I'm glad to have it and feel free to share any more ideas on A. the best type of yeast to use (I heard Fleshman's and not to use fast rising) and DIY bubble counters or store bought good ones!
I'll keep you guys posted on the results of the Leafzone.
Peace and thanks again


PS.. wall unit pic is in my avatar but that's the old light strip... it was 6700k and you're right I loved the light color too but I didn't like the Brown algae .. Maybe if I would have raised the light more. I can try that again but I was worried about saturation.

 

[Backwater]

PS... posting seperate.

Here is how both tanks look today and all things considering what happened to them, I think they are finally starting to bounce back 100% and look the way they did prior to the lighting fiasco.... I'll keep them stable for now and maybe get one more good month of growth out of each tank until I try again.

Also on another plus note, my albino bristle nose (in my 20 long black water) is a male it appears as after 1 month he's really starting to produce the whiskers! ... that's awesome and he loves blanched carrots once a week and chewing on the Mopani and regular Malaysian drift wood all the time

OH! one last thing... in the wisteria tank i'd eventually love to have the dwarf baby grass stuff and some driftwood with moss on it.. so finding a strip light to stretch across both that was not too short and just the right light would be ideal .. any ideas on the dwarf baby grass with the Wisteria ?

 

[aqua_chem]

As far as frets go, I think API leafzone is just iron and potassium. Flourish is most of your micronutrients and insignificant amounts of macronutrients. Neither of them will have phosphates. You might look into buying dry ferts, which is albeit more complicated but gives you a degree of control much greater than any premade fertilizer, and for nickels on the dollar what premade ferts would cost you.

On your other question, I'm not sure what you're asking. Do you want dwarf baby TEARS or dwarf HAIR grass? With good co2, strong light, and good ferts you can grow just about anything, but failure to supply even one leads to dead or scraggly plants.

 

[Backwater]

As far as frets go, I think API leafzone is just iron and potassium. Flourish is most of your micronutrients and insignificant amounts of macronutrients. Neither of them will have phosphates. You might look into buying dry ferts, which is albeit more complicated but gives you a degree of control much greater than any premade fertilizer, and for nickels on the dollar what premade ferts would cost you.

On your other question, I'm not sure what you're asking. Do you want dwarf baby TEARS or dwarf HAIR grass? With good co2, strong light, and good ferts you can grow just about anything, but failure to supply even one leads to dead or scraggly plants.

Thanks AC,

Well, I was thinking of doing peat for the black water tank but what dry ferts are you suggesting? OH WAIT! I totally forgot, I have a phosphate test kit! I got it when I went through a bad bought of BGA in the Repens. Yeah that tank has been through the wringer lol. I did learn a lot so far though. I'll test the phosphates but at last check, 2 months ago, I believe they were at 2-3. Florida water is kind of rich with phosphates (so that doesn't worry me as much as the potassium needed from the API Leaf Zone which I stopped using) and phosphates were only at @2-3 cause I was actually using Phosgaurd to combat the BGA but no longer using it. I'd bet the phosphates are at least 3.0 atm.

Also, yeah the dwarf babies tears... that's the one I like.. stays small like a carpet right ? It can be used with mesh as well right ?

HOLY HECK > I just found this site and they are located in Florida! Sweet!
http://www.floridaaquatic.com/whats_new_aquarium_plants_2012.html
great looking baby tears

Omg, a short reply from me for once

 

[aqua_chem]

Mesh? I don't think so, that's usually reserved for mosses or similar plants. Dwarf baby tears has what looks like small leaves growing on a vine. I think it looks a bit like golf fairway when grown in, whereas dwarf hair grass looks a lot like thin blade grass.

 

[meegosh]

Just be careful with your dosing. Your tank is far from heavily planted and that is what most fert mixes are used for. Go on a buying spree and fill the tank up with stems before going with higher lights, co2 and ferts. It will make the balancing game a lot easier when you have a bunch of stems out competing your algae for nutrients.

Going nuts with lights, co2 and ferts with only the plants you have in the tank now will only be asking for trouble, IME. I'm sure you could do it but it would be a lot easier with more stems to absorb all these nutrients you are dosing.

 

[Backwater]

Just be careful with your dosing. Your tank is far from heavily planted and that is what most fert mixes are used for. Go on a buying spree and fill the tank up with stems before going with higher lights, co2 and ferts. It will make the balancing game a lot easier when you have a bunch of stems out competing your algae for nutrients.

Going nuts with lights, co2 and ferts with only the plants you have in the tank now will only be asking for trouble, IME. I'm sure you could do it but it would be a lot easier with more stems to absorb all these nutrients you are dosing.

Yep! I was planing on buying a bunch more L. Repens before I put the DIY Co2 and new lights on that's why I am gonna wait a bit till work improves. Question, any guidelines to prevent L. Repens from getting mushy stalks ? Seems like that's their normal mode for a bit when newly planted. I've tried shallow plantings and deep plantings and neither seem to make a big difference.

Also, For the wisteria I'll probably buy a couple more stalks but not too many cause that stuff is growing like wildfire now and grows really quickly. I would eventually like to put a dwarf baby tears carpet down in the Wisteria as there is a place right here in flordia that sells 10x10 carpets of it awesome!


PS.. once I get back stable on my feet with work I owe you guys a membership contribution

 

[Backwater]

PS seperate posting meegosh!


Your Geophagus tapajos are GORGEOUS! ... that thread is awesome and the video is awesome too. I love that song..

I have a 55Gal with just a single convict in it right now... Could I put Geophagus tapajos in with him if I make the right habitat? I'd really like to do kind of like what you did. I'd like to do a mixture of rock, wood, sand floor, some plants (swords, Anubias, Java fern) and possibly a rock background but I kind of like the all open view myself....

If you have suggestions about using a sanding substrate with planted tanks and or mixing in Laterite or Eco complete and even heat cables please share i'd appreciate the tips. you can post in this thread about the heat cables ( or any other substrate advice for what I mentioned) if you like > http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f24/please-help-heatcables-substrate-layer-order-220374.html

Here's a separate thread for it and a pic of the 55gal... it's only a month or two old. I know it's kind of a sad existence for him but he did get an upgrade from the 20Long (now a black water project) so he got the space I'm still furnishing it for him lol.

PS.. NE Ohio ? I lived in Brecksville (Cleveland) for a bout 5 years. Good place.