tetra apparently missing lips *** update ***

[odobenus]

type of fish afflicted, description of problem
My buenos aires tetra appears to be missing its lips. The area around the mouth is white, instead of grey, and her teeth are much more prominant than before. She's been like this for the last three or four days. There are two other BA tetras in the tank, and they look perfectly normal.

tank parameters
I just measured about 20 minutes ago:
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 10
pH about 7.6

We check every couple of days, and the nitrates are usually a bit higher, 20-30 or so.

the tank
10 gallons, finished cycling just over two months ago

filtration
I don't know. It's a HOB from Wal-Mart. It uses the Penguin Mini Power filters, so I'm guessing it's 100 gph.

other fish
There are three buenos aires tetras in the tank and one red-tailed black shark. Not including fins I would guess that two of the tetras (including the one missing her lips) and the shark are about 1.5 in long, and the third tetra is about 1 in. (I stink at measuring fish, so take that with a grain of salt.) The tetras have been in the tank since the middle of May (didn't know about fishless cycling at the time) and the shark since the beginning of June.

water changes
The last partial water change and gravel vac was 28 July, about a week ago. We vacuum every time we change the water, which is every week to a week and a half. Each pwc is about 20%.


anything new?
We added some anacris and java fern about two weeks ago. I tied the java fern to the rocks with some twine.

food
They are fed twice a day. Omega One freshwater flakes in the morning and evening, as well as some Omega One shrimp pellets in the evening.


Apart from the strange lips I have noticed one change in the tetra's behavior. She appears to have stopped eating the shrimp pellets. She still attacks the flakes, though. She is not flashing or showing any other irratic behavior. I thought she might have cotton mouth, but there really isn't anything cottony about the mouth. The lips are just small and white and the teeth are incredibly prominant.

Is this something that happens to BA tetras as they age, or is there something wrong with this one?

 

[Devilishturtles]

I'm not positive with this, but I'll take a stab here. Sounds like a bacterial infection...where it came from though, I don't know. The plants seem like a likely cause for it being introduced. I would start with some anti-bacterial meds as soon as possible, and treat in a QT tank if you have one. IME, however, once a fish's mouth gets infected, it's a bit too late to treat. It's still eating however, you said, so you may still have a chance.

HTH

 

[odobenus]

Ack! I don't have a QT tank! I've never had to treat fish for anything before, and I don't really know what I'm doing. Devilishturtles, can you recommend some anti-bacterial meds? Are they all pretty much the same? The lfs doesn't open until noon, so tomorrow afternoon is the earliest I can get anything. Is there anything I can do for her until then? (add salt?) I just checked the temperature, and it's 82F. That's higher than normal, but it's summer and we don't have air conditioning. Could that be a problem, too?

 

[talloulou]

Sounds like columnaris. Buy medicine sold for treating columnaris/mouth rot/or cotten mouth. Also what is the temp of your tank? If it is columnaris I have heard that it is important not to keep tank at high temp cause the columnaris bacteria thrives at high temp vs ich which is killed off by high temps. And do lots of pwc during treatment.

 

[talloulou]

You might also want to try a salt bath for the fish with symptoms.

 

[Devilishturtles]

There are many antibacterial meds out there. Any broad spectrum antibiotic should work well. Maracyn, Kanacyn, etc. Salt at this point probably won't do much to help you. The temperatures could be causing stress, especially if they are flucuating alot, but I doubt it is causing any of your problems. Test it in the morning and see what it is, if you can.

HTH

 

[odobenus]

The current temp is 82, which is higher than usual. (We like to keep it around 74-76, but it's summer...) To lower the temperature I'll have to either do lots of pwc's with cooler water or float ice in the tank. Does one of these work better than the other? Wold the potential temperature swings be more harmful than the elevated temperature?

Would every day be enough for "lots of pwc's", or more than once a day? (thanks guys!)

 

[Devilishturtles]

Sounds like columnaris

Bingo. One of the most common bacterial infections in fish. The name totally slipped me earlier.

Also, it's important that you keep water clean. Try doing water changes atleast twice a week for a while to keep your water in top notch form.

 

[odobenus]

thank you! thank you! thank you! I'm going to do a pwc tonight, and tomorrow afternoon I'll pick up one of the anti-bacterials and start dosing.

Should I worry about lowering the temp? I don't think it fluctuates very quickly, because the temp in the house itself is pretty constant...

 

[Devilishturtles]

Should I worry about lowering the temp? I don't think it fluctuates very quickly, because the temp in the house itself is pretty constant...

I wouldn't worry about attempting it. All it's probably going to do is make your temp flucuate...since it'll just go back up later it seems. I doubt it flucuates quickly as well.

Good luck.

 

[greenmaji]

you might want to try a fan blowing on the surfase of the water.. heat will make bacterial infections move more quickly.. and the fan method is almost a constant, less fluctuation then ice or water changes. HTH

 

[Jchillin]

I have a skirted tetra that survived this affliction. Though he looks pretty weird right now...looks like he has a beard. He is still eating and swimming and it's been three weeks since the treatment ended.

 

[odobenus]

I just put a fan up next to the tank, and am getting nice (but small) ripples on the surface.

looks like he has a beard

That's one of the funny things; there isn't any cottony growth or strings or anything, the lips just appear to be gone. The store opens up in a few minutes, so I'd better go.

 

[odobenus]

just got back from the lfs. I described the problem and suggested that it might be columnaris. She agreed, and suggested something she said was a combination of maracyn and kanacyn. I felt really good about this, because it agreed with all the comments here, so I figured she knew what she was talking about. She gave me some tablets, which I unfortunately didn't look at until just now. What she gave me was nalidixic acid. Is this going to work? Do I need to go back and exchange it? ack!

 

[odobenus]

update: I dropped in one tablet of Nalasol (the brand name for he nalidixic acid) two days ago and one tablet yesterday. The tetra doens't look any worse, but she doesn't look any better, either. She's still eating flakes, which I take as a good sign. I tested the water today:

ammonia: 0
nitrites: 0
nitrates: 10
pH: 8.0

Where did that pH come from? It's always been a pretty steady 7.6. I retested the tank, just to make sure, and it came out 8 again. I tested the tap water to see if anything had changed, and it still came out 7.6. Could the Nalasol have raised the pH? Is this hurting my fish? I immediately did a 20% pwc to be safe. (Will that drop the pH too fast?)

I have a skirted tetra that survived this affliction. Though he looks pretty weird right now...looks like he has a beard. He is still eating and swimming and it's been three weeks since the treatment ended.

Jchillin, how's your tetra? Does he still have his beard?

**edit** Oh, I also put a fan on the tank the other day, which lowered the temp a little. (Thanks, greenmaji!) The weather and house have cooled off, so the tank is back to about 78F.

 

[Devilishturtles]

I have never heard of naladixic acid before...so I'm unsure of what it can do to water chemistry. It's quite possible that the meds did it. Have you tested again to see what the pH level is? The fact that the fish is still eating is always a good sign!

Good luck with treatment. You may want to research the naladixic acid a bit more. 8)

 

[odobenus]

I did a bit of research before I dropped it in. Nalidixic acid is actually given to humans to treat urinary tract infections! It's also used as an antibiotic in aquariums, and is supposed to work on both gram positive and gram negative bacteria. (Columnaris is gram negative.) I couldn't really find any web sites, however, that specifically suggested nalidixic acid as a treatment for columnaris. Most recommended the maracyn and kanacyn, so I was not sure if this would work as well, or if my fish would have some adverse reaction to it. I think it's working, though. My husband definitely thinks her lips look better. I am not sure if it's wishful thinking, but they definitely don't look any worse!

Now for more questions:
We tested the pH levels again today, and they were slightly above 8, so we did another pwc. I forgot to mention that when I first added the nalidixic acid I also slit open the filter and removed as much of the carbon as I could. (The woman from the lfs told me to do this, even though the carbon was over a month old.) Could this lack of carbon, even though I'm sure it was totally spent, have an effect on the pH? I did a little more research on nalidixic acid, and couldn't find anything about it changing the pH. The pH for the tetras should be about 6-8, so they should be okay with this slightly higher pH for a while, but the red tail should be at about 7, so I'm a little concerned...

 

[Devilishturtles]

Could this lack of carbon, even though I'm sure it was totally spent, have an effect on the pH?

Nah, I doubt it. All carbon really does is soak up the inorganic compounds in your water. I'm almost positive that the medicine is what is causing your pH flucuations.

Most fish can adapt to a pH range from 6-8, but tetras really will thrive in a pH of below 7. They will be ok for a minimum amount of time. Keep us updated.

 

[greenmaji]

The only reason I can think of is that the product might have had some baking soda in it to counter act the fact that the medication is an acid.. And that would be why your PH went up, but the speed at wich PH changes would be the only thing to be concerned about the number isnt really all that important.
btw. did the fan bring down the temperature into normal ranges say around 78 degrees F?

 

[odobenus]

greenmaji, the fan did help! thanks! I was not really sure it would work, not because I doubted you or the suggestion, but because I figured the temperature dropped because of evaporation. The humidity was at almost 80% that day, and I did not know how much more water the air could hold. The fan lowered the temp about two degrees or so, down to about 80F, which was still high, but better. The weather has since cooled off enough to take the fan down.

and in really happy (at least for me) news today... her lips are better! They are not quite all there, but I would put it at about 90%. We decided not to dose the aquarium again, so today I am going to put in a new filter so the carbon can take out whatever med residue is left. I just checked the pH and it is down to 7.8, so I am guessing with a few more pwc's and no more meds it will be back to normal. (which is 7.6 for us)

the product might have had some baking soda in it to counter act the fact that the medication is an acid

Are companies allowed to add things to their medication that are not listed on the package? It does not say anything on the package about baking soda. (Under "Ingredients" it only lists the nalidixic acid.) I suppose packaging and labeling laws for fish medication are not as stringent as those for humans. Ooh, just had a thought... could it have been the capsule? They are made of some clear plasticy material that dissolves after half an hour or so, releasing the powder. Maybe that was made of something basic...

Thank you all so much! I really appreciate all the advice!