Ugh! Nitrates!

[emilygupps]

Mostly, I want to vent, and I'm hoping some one will have an answer for me, if not, please tells others are in this annoying place too.

The 180 is my problem child. We're testing water every day, since Sunday, and have done 5 water changes %75 sun, %25 Monday, rest tues, %50 Wednesday, and an other %25. We recently switched to the master kit from the strips which have been giving up 10-20ppm readings. Now, with the master on Sunday we were off the charts 160ppm. By last night we were down to 40ppm. And yesterday we found 2 dead khulis. One had been dead a while. It was all fuzzy.

We are battling algae. And the gbr hunger games. Will duck weed pull out some of those nitrates? I'm heavily planted. Omg. I know we will survive this. I just don't want to lose any more of the delicate fish. The danios of course seem unphased.


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[BBradbury]

Nitrate Levels

Hello em..

Floating plants will help. Hornwort, Anacharis (Brazilian Water Weed) and Pennywort will take in this form of nitrogen just about as fast as it can be produced. It's available at most of the chain pet stores like Petco. Just drop as many of the individual stems as possible into the tank.

B

 

[emilygupps]

Must they float to do the job? We have tons of anarchis (it grows like a weed).


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[philipraposo198]

You need to stop feeding, well not stop completely but drop down to once every other day. Feed enough food for it to be consumed in 1 min and no more. Your probably overstocked too. Rehoming some fish is probably required.

Ensure your removing dead fish and dead foliage asap. This is probably a huge contributor to your nitrates.

The fact that you had a decaying fish in your tank is probably what spiked the nitrates to begins with.

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[philipraposo198]

Must they float to do the job? We have tons of anarchis (it grows like a weed).


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No they don't have to float. As plants grow they use nitrates. Floating or not they all uptake toxins.

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[icydeath]

Test your tap water. You should also build an algae scrubber!

 

[Gillie]

Have you tested water directly from the tap yet?
Are you dosing nitrate for the plants?
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[emilygupps]

You need to stop feeding, well not stop completely but drop down to once every other day. Feed enough food for it to be consumed in 1 min and no more. Your probably overstocked too. Rehoming some fish is probably required.

Ensure your removing dead fish and dead foliage asap. This is probably a huge contributor to your nitrates.

The fact that you had a decaying fish in your tank is probably what spiked the nitrates to begins with.

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I have two hob filters and a canister running and two power heads.

Stock:
18 nerite snails
2 med angels
4 small angels
1 baby angel
13 danios
7 khuli
7 ottos
5 amono shrimp
1 farlawala cat fish

I do probably over feed because I'm worried the khulis aren't getting enough so I put more than the others will eat so that some will fall. I have five other tanks that are pretty stable that I can move bodies around to if I have to, but I don't think my bio load is crazy.

I'll skip feeding tonight. Last night the nitrates were at 15ppm. So we test again tonight and probably change some more water.

We didn't think to test the tap water, but we did check out sparklers drinking water just to see if the master kit was accurate. And the drinking water came out at zero. Will test the tap tonight too! We treat with prime at every water change though. And prime says it detoxifies amonia, nitrite and nitrate... So after each change shouldn't we be back down to zero? That means those nitrates are building up fast.


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[emilygupps]

Oh yeah and 1 gbr in the tank stock too. Forgot about him. He is all that's left of the 8 we bought a couple months ago.

The algae is killing me!!

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[icydeath]

Detoxifying it doesn't get rid of it. Just makes it not (or less) toxic. Kinda like CopperSafe.

What you should do is just feed all the other fish normally in day time and at night drop an algae tablet or two (break it into 2-4 pieces) and they will sink and the kuhli's and amano's and nerites will be able to eat without the other fish stealing their food.

Good luck! - Raymond

 

[icydeath]

Algae is good for tanks (I also like how green algae looks) with amanos and nerites but you should supplement them regardless.

 

[emilygupps]

Update: our tap water water is 20ppm nitrate.

Our 180 is testing 20ppm tonight, and we found two more dead khuli loaches. One old one fresh in the same spot.

At this point I'm wondering if we need to pull up all the plants and go through all the decor and the substrate and search for dead loaches and dead ottos. I only see two ottos at any given time. And a hand full of loaches. I'm worried they're starving, I see them shoot sand but I can't say I see them eat actual food.


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[philipraposo198]

I think if your unsure about dead lingering fish then you should tear it down and start over.

I also feel like with that might nitrates from the tap the fish you have are going to struggle.

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[PB_Smith]

20ppm is absolutely nothing to be concerned about in fresh water, especially a well planted tank like yours.
Your stock levels are perfectly fine for that size tank.
There is always the possibility that the major water changes has something to do with the deaths. Sudden and big swings in water parameters, even if in the right direction, can take it's toll on fish, especially soft bodied critters like the loaches.

How are all the other parameters, especially ph? I suspect that ph may also be a culprit.
With the big changes I'm assuming the ph also went through drastic swings as well.

Breaking it down is a very last resort measure and you are nowhere near "last resort".

Maybe get some sinking food pellets or similar specifically for the bottom dwellers, but I'm gonna cast my bet on the high nitrates as maybe the cause of the first death, and the big water changes as possible cause of subsequent deaths.

Is your filtration still functioning at it's fullest?
Have you looked into the possibility of disease? Very possible if the loaches are the only thing dying off.

Don't follow alarmist, knee-jerk advice, take it slow.
I'm sure you can look for critters without tearing up the tank.

 

[BillD]

It is unlikely that pH is an issue, unless you have an acidic tank with ammonia present and you suddenly change the water to create an alkaline pH, which doesn't appear to be the case here.. Tanks that are injected with CO2 have pH swings every day, and it has no effect on the fish. It also sounds like the nitrate level has been reduced to a safe level. One way to slow the rise of nitrates is to keep the filters clean of solid detritus. Removing it before it breaks down will slow the rise of nitrates.

 

[Caliban07]

I don't think ph is the issue either. Constantly changing water will replenish buffers and help to keep ph stable. On the other hand, to end up with off the chart nitrates, that's some pretty hardcore nitrification taking place it is possible that the buffers are being used up and ph is falling. Depends on the carbonate hardness of the water.

This sounds like a definite over feeding problem to me.

To get rid if the algae cut the light down to 4 hours a night. You have too much nitrate production for the plants to out compete the algae.

In my opinion, it's better to have tanks that are predominantly bottom feeders with a slow centrepiece or fast swimming top dwellers with no bottom feeders. The temptation to overfeed due to worrying about whether your bottom feeders are getting enough is too high.

I would probably remove some of the competition at substrate level and cut down on feeding. Cut light down dramatically and the algae will take much much longer to grow if at all.

Go easy on changing lots of water too as already mentioned. Altering the dissolved solids content of the water can make fish sick.

I know you have been trying to do what's best for your fish but that is the frustrating thing with this hobby.

Good luck


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[PB_Smith]

Well any discussion concerning ph will depend entirely on the ph of the water in the tank vs that being used for the water changes, true?
Basically those of sitting here reading this thread do not have enough information to rule out an issue concerning ph as Emily has not published those readings as of yet.

I mentioned earlier about the loaches being soft-bodied critters (no scales) and it does make a difference with how sensitive they are to water quality.
That is the only reason I questioned the big water changes as they relate to ph fluctuations.
But at this point I think Emily should also consider the possibility of disease if the loaches are the only thing not doing well.

 

[emilygupps]

I appreciate every one responding! I will give all the levels when I get home. Yesterday was water change day. Thank you again for ideas.


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[Andy Sager]

Well any discussion concerning ph will depend entirely on the ph of the water in the tank vs that being used for the water changes, true?
Basically those of sitting here reading this thread do not have enough information to rule out an issue concerning ph as Emily has not published those readings as of yet.

I mentioned earlier about the loaches being soft-bodied critters (no scales) and it does make a difference with how sensitive they are to water quality.
That is the only reason I questioned the big water changes as they relate to ph fluctuations.
But at this point I think Emily should also consider the possibility of disease if the loaches are the only thing not doing well.

PB is correct, not enough info to say PH is or isn't the problem. Nitrates are the end byproduct of the nitrification process and from the sounds of things, too much ammonia was produced in the form of excess food and possibly stock which led to the eventual Nitrate "bloom". One has to consider that if there is still a nitrate problem in the presence of all those plants and algaes, the main source of the problem comes from outside the tank. ( I hope I said that politely enough. We used to call it "killing them with kindness." )
It's been my experience that large scale water changes do more damage then good in freshwater aquaria. The shock to the system takes it's toll on the fish. I also think that it's been the secondary reason for the subsequent loss of more loaches after the water changes with lack of food being the primary source from the start. Certain fish, scaleless ones for example, are more sensitive to water changes and the fact that only the loaches seem to be effected after these water changes leads me to believe they are the problem not the solution. Disease seems unlikely as it usually effects all fish not just species specific. Again, not enough info to say outright this was or wasn't the cause.

For my 2 cents, stop with the water changes, use PRIME if the nitrate level becomes high enough to be toxic, cut back on the feeding and other ammonia sources, ( consider removing the loaches to a more suitable tank set up where they won't have to compete for their food), do some searching in the plants for more dead fish or pockets of uneaten food to remove and go from there. A healthy system has a way of equalizing itself so the less interference, the better. Do not add more fish for now.

Hope this helps

 

[Caliban07]

PB is correct, not enough info to say PH is or isn't the problem. Nitrates are the end byproduct of the nitrification process and from the sounds of things, too much ammonia was produced in the form of excess food and possibly stock which led to the eventual Nitrate "bloom". One has to consider that if there is still a nitrate problem in the presence of all those plants and algaes, the main source of the problem comes from outside the tank. ( I hope I said that politely enough. We used to call it "killing them with kindness." )
It's been my experience that large scale water changes do more damage then good in freshwater aquaria. The shock to the system takes it's toll on the fish. I also think that it's been the secondary reason for the subsequent loss of more loaches after the water changes with lack of food being the primary source from the start. Certain fish, scaleless ones for example, are more sensitive to water changes and the fact that only the loaches seem to be effected after these water changes leads me to believe they are the problem not the solution. Disease seems unlikely as it usually effects all fish not just species specific. Again, not enough info to say outright this was or wasn't the cause.

For my 2 cents, stop with the water changes, use PRIME if the nitrate level becomes high enough to be toxic, cut back on the feeding and other ammonia sources, ( consider removing the loaches to a more suitable tank set up where they won't have to compete for their food), do some searching in the plants for more dead fish or pockets of uneaten food to remove and go from there. A healthy system has a way of equalizing itself so the less interference, the better. Do not add more fish for now.

Hope this helps

I just believe there are more likely culprits. I don't believe large water changes that are practiced religiously are damaging to fish. Once they adapt with no problems then the water shouldn't change enough to harm them. It's more likely sporadic water change periods and/or volumes.

There are a lot of potential factors on this case internal and external.


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