Unexpected deaths, pls help!!

[NicknClair]

Hi all,
Have had some very unexpected deaths to my Tuxedo Guppies, whom share a tank with 6 peppered Cory's, 12 Neon Tetras, 12 Red lone tetras and 4 Hong Kong suckers. The tank is a 90 lt tank (approx 20 gallon). It has a built in filter system with a large filter element.

Ammonia levels are at zero, but as a precaution, I've carried out a 50% water change and have thoroughly hoovered the substrate. A week later, I performed another 50% water change. The remaining 3 guppies have shrunk in size and the larger one is a funny shape. The confusion is that they are showing signs of red gill (ammonia burn), even though the tests have come back zero.
I don't know if it's worth mentioning, but I don't have any real plants, only artificial ones.
Any advice?

 

[Fishfur]

That is a lot of fish for that size tank, I'd think. I don't know what a Hong Kong sucker is.. species name ?

Red gills can be ammonia burn, but might also be gill flukes, possibly. Fish would show laboured breathing as well. Have you tested for nitrite ? Nitrite can cause the same issues as ammonia does.

Do you have nitrite and nitrate tests ? if not, I'd get them and test. First find out the total water conditions, then maybe can figure out what's up with the fish. Does not sound good, but if it was ammonia or nitrite, all fish should be showing symptoms, not just the guppies.

How long have you had the tank running, how long have you had the various fish ?

 

[Tuck]

That is a lot of fish for that size tank, I'd think. I don't know what a Hong Kong sucker is.. species name ? Red gills can be ammonia burn, but might also be gill flukes, possibly. Fish would show laboured breathing as well. Have you tested for nitrite ? Nitrite can cause the same issues as ammonia does. Do you have nitrite and nitrate tests ? if not, I'd get them and test. First find out the total water conditions, then maybe can figure out what's up with the fish. Does not sound good, but if it was ammonia or nitrite, all fish should be showing symptoms, not just the guppies. How long have you had the tank running, how long have you had the various fish ?

Hong Kong sucker ... I'd hazard a guess at a hillstream Loach. Get to about 3-4". But there extremely messy minimum take size is 15G I'm sure.

 

[NicknClair]

The suckers are Hong Kong Plecos I think, but are only 4-5cm when fully grown. These were bought at my local fish shop and on the card stated a 4-5cm maximum length.

I have just bought a API Master test kit and also have changed all the fake plants to live plants. None of the other fish show any signs of the condition, hence why I'm so confused. I can only assume it to be water condition related, but am so religious with filter clean/water changes.
I think my mistake was using king British test strips instead of the proper test methods and you guys are right, the nitrates are a little high. I have done a quarter water change and installed the live plants. Will test again in a couple of days but is there anything else you guys suggest?

 

[Tuck]

The suckers are Hong Kong Plecos I think, but are only 4-5cm when fully grown. These were bought at my local fish shop and on the card stated a 4-5cm maximum length.

Yeah it's a hillstream loach, same fish multiple names, if your levels are good, and it's planted. Apart from keeping up water changes I don't know what to suggest sorry.

 

[NicknClair]

Hey no worries, very grateful for any input. Also this site has been help with previous posts, so kinda steered me to live plants and better testing.
Will asses over the next couple of days and hopefully should see the tests ok and an improvement in the condition of the remaining guppies. Would be nice to re-stock if cured as miss the variation in colour and size in the tank.
Thanks for your help guys

 

[Cactuspixie]

Hey no worries, very grateful for any input. Also this site has been help with previous posts, so kinda steered me to live plants and better testing.
Will asses over the next couple of days and hopefully should see the tests ok and an improvement in the condition of the remaining guppies. Would be nice to re-stock if cured as miss the variation in colour and size in the tank.
Thanks for your help guys

The footprint of that tank isn't big enough for 6 peppered cories.
Are you able to add an external canister filter to the tank? If it were my tank, I'd do 50% pwc twice a week. Hillstream loaches need pristine water.
Hold off getting more guppies until you have your tank stabilized- at least a couple of weeks.

 

[Fishfur]

Fwiw, hillstream loaches are not the easiest fish to keep. They want a very strong current of water, as the streams they come from have high flow, and their bodies look like they do because it's an adaptation to allow them to stick to rocks and not be carried off by the water flow. I think they may not do very well unless you can provide the right conditions for them.

'Loaches online' is a great site with super information on all loach species, and I've read their article on Hillstreams.. it's terrific. GIve it a look.

You're right that water conditions should be affecting all fish, but gill fluke might not have had a chance to infect the other fish to the point it shows. How long have you had the guppies.. when was the last time you added new fish ?

 

[NicknClair]

Not added any fish for a while now, as when we had all we were very happy with the tank. The loaches were the last purchase, which were at least a month ago.
I have a very good flow of water, as the pump/filter system had been change under advice from a friend and the loaches have been getting on great.
The guppies we've had from pretty much the start after a month of cycling before any fish was put in, so about 11 months. The newborns were removed and my brother had them, so we've always had the original 6 fish for all this time.
The only thing I did decide to do when the problems started was to invest in a good gravel cleaner and this is what I did;
1. Performed a thorough gravel clean with the cleaner and performed a 50% water change and cleaned the filter. It is worth mentioning that it was pretty messy.
2. One week later, performed another 50% water change and cleaned the filter.
3. Today I done another gravel clean (which there was hardly any mess), performed another 50% water change and swapped the fake plants with live plants.

The tank is a Betta life space 90lt tank, which has a very good filter system built in and was told that it's a bit of an overkill as this tank was originally designed for salt water not fresh water, but the wife wanted that tank, so that's what we bought.
I have decided to not buy any more fish until I see an improvement in the current guppies and the tests stay perfect over the next 2 weeks at least!

 

[Fishfur]

Well, that's good then, I like loaches quite a lot. Very cool fish.

Might be cleaning the filter twice a week apart reduced the BB population, which may account for the higher nitrite level you saw. Filters should be cleaned, yes, regularly, but not that often.

Do you rinse out the media in tank water or tap water ? If tap, start using tank water instead, from water changes, no chlorine to harm BB in tank water.

Also, if there is more than one media type in the filter, only clean one type at a time. So if you had, say, ceramic and filter pads, clean the ceramic one week, the filter pad next time, so you aren't rinsing off too many BB at one time. Though they do stick to their surfaces, it can be surprising how many of them may be washed off during a cleaning.

I had wondered, if you'd added new fish recently, perhaps they brought in a parasite, such as gill flukes. But parasites can also arrive with water from new plants.. you said you had added live plants ? Maybe something came with them, that's now affecting the guppies. Perhaps they were most attractive or closest to whatever it is. Just thinking here.. it's odd to have all of one species show symptoms while no others do.

 

[Cactuspixie]

When you clean your filter, do you rinse the media in siphoned tank water/fresh dechlorinated water?
You can't have too much filtration, and I like to have a minimum of two so I have backup in case one fails. It also allows more flexibility with filter media, and you can alternate cleaning them so you don't disturb all your bb at one time.
I try not to do filter cleans on the same day I have done a large water change and thorough gravel vac. It's tempting though! Lol

 

[Fishfur]

Here is a good article on gill flukes, and other similar parasites. Maybe you will see something that rings a bell ? I'm wondering if maybe eggs came in somehow, and are now infecting the guppies. Just a shot in the dark.. can't hurt to read and see.



http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/parasites-flukes

 

[NicknClair]

I have always been told to use the water from my water change to clean the filters/media, is this wrong?
Also I've done the filter clean with the water change once every 7days over the last 3 weeks since the problem started. The gravel cleaner I bought was a Aquarium Systems PGR2000 Power Gravel Cleaner, looked the business and certainly pulled a lot of mess out of the gravel.

 

[Cactuspixie]

I have always been told to use the water from my water change to clean the filters/media, is this wrong?
Also I've done the filter clean with the water change once every 7days over the last 3 weeks since the problem started. The gravel cleaner I bought was a Aquarium Systems PGR2000 Power Gravel Cleaner, looked the business and certainly pulled a lot of mess out of the gravel.

No you are doing the right thing- I just wanted to be sure you weren't killing off your bb with chlorinated water every week

 

[NicknClair]

Cool, thanks again for your help you guys. Just hope I can get things back on track and re-stock the guppies.

 

[NicknClair]

Just an update for you guys.
Have gone another water test this evening and there is an improvement, but feel not quick enough. The Nitrate levels are still excessive (looking at between 40-80ppm based on the colour chart). Although this is an improvement on the 160+ results at the weekend! I feel that if I don't nail this soon! I'm going to have even more deaths soon.

Best I can do so you guys can see what I've done to attempt to fix this, I've listed what I've done so far;

- Sunday 15th Sept: after the death of 2 fish, carried out 50% water change and cleaned the filter using water from tank.
- Sunday 22nd Sept: tested water and found Ammonia and Nitrate too high. Bought Pgr2000 gravel cleaner, cleaned gravel thoroughly, did 50% water change and cleaned filter with same water again.
- Sunday 29 Sept: After seeking advice, got live plants, cleaned gravel thoroughly, 50% water change and filter clean.
- Thursday 3rd October. Tested water again, found all readings to be great other than Nitrate still too high, but has come down by half. Tested tap water to see if that's eh problem, but found tap water to be between 0 to 5 ppm.

The filter has always been cleaned with the water from the tank and never flushed with tap water. I don't know where else to go with this other than trying something like Nitro-Zorb or something.
What do you think?

 

[Fishlover3578]

I would do 75% wc

 

[Cactuspixie]

I would have been doing water changes at LEAST once daily with an ammonia reading.
Some info that may help in understanding/choosing products to help with ammonia:
http://www.seachem.com/Library/SeaGrams/Ammonia_Management.pdf

 

[NicknClair]

Get the point Cactuspixie, but it's nitrate that's the problem, not Ammonia. Ammonia is at 0 ppm. The other problem is that I'm a truck driver so not always home every night to carry out daily changes. I will get home tomorrow night and do another Change to 70% and go again.

 

[Cactuspixie]

Oops sorry! It's nitrate you are having trouble with
Are your ammo and nitrite zero? If so then you are properly cycled, but your bioload is such that you just need more frequent/larger water changes to remove the nitrates.