Very odd fishless cycle...

[PNWaquarist]

No problem. I just wanted to give some insight into the relationship between ammonia and ammonium. I suspect that in the vast majority of cases where ammonium is converted into ammonia, it's due to increasing tank pH.

I'm not surprised that minor ammonia levels are present in samples that should be ammonia-free. Most of these test kits are not very sophisticated and the limit of quantification of ammonia is not far below the typical levels in an aquarium. This residual ammonia is almost certainly a background signal. I've done ammonia measurements with $200+ ion-selective electrodes and consistently had an ammonia background in the 5 micromolar range. When changing out water, it would be good to do an ammonia test on the water-conditioned tap water that is to be added to the tank. This could be used as your "zero" value of ammonia.

 

[Fishfur]

That is very interesting. Ammonia readings from tap water aren't surprising, considering how many municipal water supplies are being treated with ammonia as well as chlorine these days. I truly wish that I had paid a lot more attention in chemistry classes when I was still in school , but at the time, it didn't have the applications to real life that it does now, so I paid more attention to other subjects. A bit ironic, considering my Dad was a chemical engineer.

 

[PNWaquarist]

This morning, I tested the ammonia/ammonium level of my tap water (straight out of the faucet, no conditioner). The API Master Kit gave me a 0 ppm reading. Interestingly, my tap water pH is 8.2. I assume that this is due to the added chloramine.

Time to go buy a bottle of Prime!

 

[Caliban07]

"Chemically bound ammonia" (ammonium, NH4+) is in equilibrium with "free" ammonia (NH3). They are not independent of one another...



NH3 + H2O <=> NH4+ + OH-



Ammonia is the predominant form above pH 9.5 or so, while ammonium dominates at lower pH. In a typical freshwater aquarium (pH in the low/mid 7's), approximately 99% of the total ammonia is in the ammonium form. In saltwater tanks (pH > 8), more of the total ammonia is in the "free" NH3 form. As long as the pH of your tank remains constant, the RATIO of NH4+/NH3 will always be the same.



I don't know much about these kits but, if there is a zero ammonia reading, the ammonium reading will essentially be zero as well.

Temperature plays a role in the percentage ratio of ammonia/ammonium too. It takes only a very small amount of free ammonia to begin harming the fishes gills. According to studies >0.05ppm free ammonia is harmful and prolonged exposure to >0.02ppm ammonia can harm fish.

The Seachem ammonia alert will measure free ammonia. A very handy tool for a quick reference.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Caliban07]

To OP. You should check your ph level and make sure you change the water every so often. The chemical reaction that occurs when the bacteria nitrifying ammonia/nitrite uses up the carbonate hardness and thus the tank waters ability to resist drops in ph, even more so if your tap water is naturally low in carbonate hardness (kh).

Changing water will remove bacteria food but will replenish kh protecting the cycle from what is know as a ph crash.

A ph crash happens when the ph drops below 6.0. The bacteria cannot operate at this ph.

I don't believe a fishless cycle should take 2 months to complete. Try changing water and monitor ph.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[PNWaquarist]

Temperature plays a role in the percentage ratio of ammonia/ammonium too. It takes only a very small amount of free ammonia to begin harming the fishes gills. According to studies >0.05ppm free ammonia is harmful and prolonged exposure to >0.02ppm ammonia can harm fish.

The Seachem ammonia alert will measure free ammonia. A very handy tool for a quick reference.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

Very true. The pKa of ammonium ion is temperature-dependent, so one will have varying amounts of ammonia at different temperatures.

The ionic strength of your tank water will also alter the pKa of ammonium ion. Ions that have charges greater than +1 or lower than -1 contribute more heavily towards the solution ionic strength. (Example: 100 ppm calcium sulfate will have a higher ionic strength than 100 ppm sodium chloride.) Hard water contains a lot of divalent ions (calcium, magnesium, carbonate, etc.) and is generally of higher ionic strength than soft water. Typically (but not always), high ionic strength solutions lower the pKa of an acid. If the pKa of ammonium ion is lowered, that would result in a higher ammonia:ammonium ratio. If I had very hard or brackish water, I'd probably be using the Seachem test.

 

[Makaveli]

No clue what's going on in this thread anymore, lol. To Caliban, I have checked the ph and it's been at a consistent 7.6 throughout. If I don't start seeing the ammonia drop in a week or so, now that I have seeding material, I'll be at a total loss.

 

[Caliban07]

No clue what's going on in this thread anymore, lol. To Caliban, I have checked the ph and it's been at a consistent 7.6 throughout. If I don't start seeing the ammonia drop in a week or so, now that I have seeding material, I'll be at a total loss.

Sorry. Didn't want to get too technical but didn't want to say check ph without an explanation. Seeded material should help.

There are too many internal/external factors at play to determine exactly why the cycle has stalled.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[stlbluz]

To OP. You should check your ph level and make sure you change the water every so often. The chemical reaction that occurs when the bacteria nitrifying ammonia/nitrite uses up the carbonate hardness and thus the tank waters ability to resist drops in ph, even more so if your tap water is naturally low in carbonate hardness (kh).

Changing water will remove bacteria food but will replenish kh protecting the cycle from what is know as a ph crash.

A ph crash happens when the ph drops below 6.0. The bacteria cannot operate at this ph.

I don't believe a fishless cycle should take 2 months to complete. Try changing water and monitor ph.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

Part of the extended cycling time is my fault as I added coral & plants(both fake) during the process which put me back. I was also using another guide which wasn't nearly as good as the one found on this site so I was missing a few steps.

My PH has been steady & I'm noticing my ammonia dropping much faster at this point. I'm guessing my nitrites will start dropping sometime this week & that I should be ready to stock by the end of next week. Planning on starting at 60% stock the first week & then rounding it out the following week.

I'll do some partial WCs this week as you advised, though I read that a 90% change is recommended as soon as my readings are where they should be & then tested with another 4ppm ammonia prior to adding fish - does that sound right?

Thanks again for all of the input!

 

[Makaveli]

Part of the extended cycling time is my fault as I added coral & plants(both fake) during the process which put me back. I was also using another guide which wasn't nearly as good as the one found on this site so I was missing a few steps.

My PH has been steady & I'm noticing my ammonia dropping much faster at this point. I'm guessing my nitrites will start dropping sometime this week & that I should be ready to stock by the end of next week. Planning on starting at 60% stock the first week & then rounding it out the following week.

I'll do some partial WCs this week as you advised, though I read that a 90% change is recommended as soon as my readings are where they should be & then tested with another 4ppm ammonia prior to adding fish - does that sound right?

Thanks again for all of the input!

I'm confused. You sound like you're the OP....but that'd be me. Lol. Not to be a dick but you should probably go make a thread instead of stealing mine.

It'll be one week tomorrow with the established media set up. I just tested the ammonia and it still isn't dropping. I guess I can give it a little more time but it's been about two and a half months now without my cycle starting...
Followed eco's guide word for word so I really don't understand the problem.

 

[stlbluz]

No offense taken. Didn't mean to hijack. Carry on.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[stlbluz]

Good luck with your cycle as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Fresh2o]

I'm confused. You sound like you're the OP....but that'd be me. Lol. Not to be a dick but you should probably go make a thread instead of stealing mine.

It'll be one week tomorrow with the established media set up. I just tested the ammonia and it still isn't dropping. I guess I can give it a little more time but it's been about two and a half months now without my cycle starting...
Followed eco's guide word for word so I really don't understand the problem.

Wow! A week after adding established media and the ammonia is still not dropping. I'm stumped!

 

[Makaveli]

All good stlbluz GL with your aquarium.

Yeah as far as the ammonia still not dropping with established media, and the fact that I'm two and a half months in, I'm starting to feel like this will never happen. I've done loads of research and noticed that when people get stuck with their cycles, they seem to get things going with shrimp as their ammonia source. Should I maybe take this route? I really have no clue on what else to do.

 

[Mr Fisher]

All good stlbluz GL with your aquarium.

Yeah as far as the ammonia still not dropping with established media, and the fact that I'm two and a half months in, I'm starting to feel like this will never happen. I've done loads of research and noticed that when people get stuck with their cycles, they seem to get things going with shrimp as their ammonia source. Should I maybe take this route? I really have no clue on what else to do.

If it were me I would do 50% water changes daily to get the ammonia down to .5-1 PPM then use a hardy fish to do a fish in cycle. ( a couple of danios is what I usually use)

This is the first time I've had my established media not work within a week. Please PM me your paypal email so I can give you a refund.

 

[Makaveli]

I think I will go ahead and do the fish in cycle. I really didn't want to risk it, but I see no other option at this point. No worries on the refund, you've helped me out a lot and I'm sure the established media will still help speed things up. Any idea how long the fish in cycle would take? The only problem for me having to do 50% WC daily is that I have to go buy RO water at the LFS because my tap water is very high in nitrates. I could still make it work though.

 

[Makaveli]

Well it seems I've given up...nearly 3 months and no sign of the cycle starting. Followed Eco's guide word for word and have even had established media in for over 2 weeks. Now my filter is starting to make this annoying buzzing sound and it's all just too much for now. Will try again in a few months maybe...thanks all

 

[betta_cuties]

Don't give up yet! Try this first. I am copying and pasting the way that I got a very tricky 29 to cycle. You need pure, uncolored and scented ammonia. Try ace hardware. If it suds when you shake it, wrong one.Day 1

Put the rocks in your tank...set it up the way you want it to look ultimately.* Avoid putting live plants at first(they take nutrients away from the water that the bacteria will use).* If you have to put the live plants in, it's okay to do so, it will just add cycling time.* Fill with water, condition the water according to the instructions on the dechlorinator bottle.* Turn your filtration system on.* If you're using activated charcoal, DO NOT USE it till after your cycle is complete.* Using it will increase your cycling time.* ADD 5 DROPS OF AMMONIA FOR EVERY 10 GALLONS OF WATER.* Avoid using an air conditioner...try to keep the room temperature comfortable but not cold.* If you have to use your AC then use an aquarium heater to bring the water temp to a level that the fish will live in, around 72 to 82 degrees is an average for tropical freshwater fish.


Day 2

Test the water for ammonia levels.* The standard test kit in the above photos, shows a sample reading.* You're shooting to get the reading at the highest ppm level (8.0).* If it hasn't reached this level, ADD ANOTHER 5 DROPS OF AMMONIA FOR EVERY 10 GALLONS OF WATER.* If it has reached 8.0 ppm, then just add 2-3 drops of ammonia.


Day 3

In my experience, a long 30 gallon tank will reach the 8.0 ppm mark in 2-3 days.* Test the water for ammonia.* If it's reached this level.* Add only 2-3 drops of ammonia.* If not, add 5 drops of ammonia for every 10 gallons of water.


Day 4

Test the water for ammonia levels.* If the 8.0 ppm mark was hit the day before...the water color from the test test kit should be at about the same level.* The bacteria have not had sufficient time to multiply to eat the nitrates yet.* Add another 2-3 drops of ammonia.


Day 5

Test the water for ammonia.* There should be a slight decrease in the ppm's.* Between 4.0 to 8.0.* Add 2-3 drops of ammonia.


Day 6

Test the water for ammonia.* There should be a distinct decrease in the ppm's as the bacteria are multiplying at an astronomical rate to devour the nitrates in the water.* 24 hours for a bacterium is like 1000 years to you and me!* The level is gonna be at or about 2.0 to 3.0


Day 7

Test the water for ammonia.* The levels for a standard smaller tank, 30 gallons or less, will be at a level that fish can tolerate but not completely 0.0 yet.* Using this method,* I've had consistent readings for these size tanks of 0.25 ppm or LESS on the 7th or 8th day.



Sent from my Venue 8 3830 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[betta_cuties]

Days 1, 5 and 9

Sent from my Venue 8 3830 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[betta_cuties]

You should do a water change and continue with the daily ammonia dosing. If you want a jump start, buy some tetra safe start and dump the in the tank 24 hours before the ammonia. I posted that here because I am out of PMS.

Sent from my Venue 8 3830 using Aquarium Advice mobile app