Water changes

[Mebbid]

I have the benefit of seeing the effects of nitrates working o the immune system of fish directly in salt water tanks. This is most prominently seen in tanks that are infected with ich.

My tank had an active ifh infestation for approximately 9 ish months. In the beginning, my nitrates had crept up reducing the immune reaction of the fish making them more susceptible to disease. At the point where it was at its worst my nitrates spiked up to 80ppm due to issues with my caulerpa. At this same time my clowns became covered in ich. With some emergency treatment they survived, however I was never able to fully get the ich eradicated. Throughout those 9ish months I managed to get my nitrates down to 0 where they have stayed ever since. About once or twice a month I would see a single spot or two on my fish but no more. There are many other redfers that do this same thing to control their ich.

Scientific research has shown nitrates have a direct effect on immune response which is a bit more conclusive than what ive personally witnessed

In short, the cleaner the water, the healthier the fish. So no, you cant really do too many water changes unless theres a problem with your source water.

 

[PNWaquarist]

The problem arises when people who clearly want to learn and understand different aspects of water chemistry or tank parameters are handed the same repetitive answer in most threads without actually addressing the posters original question.

Bingo!

Rather than "you don't need to know all that chemistry nonsense"

Indeed. Maintaining an aquarium is a science, not an act of faith. If you have a basic understanding of concepts such as pH, GH, TDS, the nitrogen cycle, optimal bacterial growth conditions, etc., you're likely going to have an easier time setting up and maintaining a healthy aquarium. Many of the problems that I see posted on this site stem from the poster not understanding the basic science behind what they're doing.

 

[BillD]

Thanks, Caliban07, for the thoughtful response. While I agree with most of what you have stated, I don't believe a water change would be a waste, even if it is more than necessary. It is true that with a little testing, you can determine the minimum amount and frequency of partial water changes. It is my opinion, that changing more than that is beneficial. It allows you to stay ahead of problems, such as a missed change or two due to time constraints. I do know from past experience that you can neglect changes and go for quite long time intervals without any apparent detrimental effect. I would never advise anyone to do that, of course.
So, if we pick a nitrate number to work with, perhaps 40 ppm, which is often recommended as the maximum safe level for the long term. That would put you on the edge of safety, if that number is in fact correct. We may decide to try and keep that at 20 through PWCs, which would be a lot better. I don't think anyone would argue that it wouldn't be better to keep it at 10 ppm. We all have to decide what we can live with, but I will reiterate, more is better.

 

[SFAquariums1]

@SFAquariums1 I'm curious to know where were your nitrates after a month?

About 8 ppm. To me, in MY opinion water changes are meant to get the rotting fish food and fish waste that the filter has not picked up off the bottom since it is impossible to expect the filter to do that all. As I stated before it is not the norm of me to not do water changes, however my fish are happy and are breeding more than they have in the past. So I'm just doing weekly "cleanup" by siphoning however much water it takes to clean up the bottom. I understand water changes are an important part of the hobby. However, I don't think "huge water changes" are necesary. Ive conducted an expiriment by having 2 tanks with the same plants same substrate and same amount of water in gallons. One tank I did 50% water changes weekly and the other I did 10% water changes weekly. The tanks were just about the same reading every time I tested the water.

As for who said "the haters in this thread" I am not a hater. I just think that every thread I have seen bbradbury post in.... His answer is water changes. And though water changes may be a piece of the puzzle, he makes it seem like that's all you have to do. I'm staying that I don't agree wth that


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[PB_Smith]

Fish can easily go several days without food. The water stays much cleaner this way. That's the way nature does things.

Call me a hater if you want, but seriously, how do you reconcile the above statement.

 

[gilpi]

Keeping some fish in a tank does not have to be a science and definitely not a faith, that is pure sarcasm and not relevant to this topic.
When someone has a specific issue with their tank/water and an experienced aquarist steps in and advices in doing massive water changes, somehow that sounds like it is too easy or it's "ignorant" there should not even be a discussion the benefits of a water change.
There's nothing wrong with checking water parameters and I'm sure it can be useful in extreme conditions but knowing what your water parameters are, will not cure or make your fish healthy, is the action that one takes changing water that helps with the fish immune system to prevent it from getting sick in the first place. We now let our test kits decide when to change water! So misleading.
I hear the word "tolerate" how much nitrates can a fish tolerate. Once you take a fish to the "tolerate" level, you've already gone a bit too far.
Is it better for a fish to live in 10ppm or 40ppm nitrate?
I'll take 10ppm, how do we achieve that, I know, too repetitious.... Water changes.

 

[Caliban07]

Keeping some fish in a tank does not have to be a science and definitely not a faith, that is pure sarcasm and not relevant to this topic.
When someone has a specific issue with their tank/water and an experienced aquarist steps in and advices in doing massive water changes, somehow that sounds like it is too easy or it's "ignorant" there should not even be a discussion the benefits of a water change.
There's nothing wrong with checking water parameters and I'm sure it can be useful in extreme conditions but knowing what your water parameters are, will not cure or make your fish healthy, is the action that one takes changing water that helps with the fish immune system to prevent it from getting sick in the first place. We now let our test kits decide when to change water! So misleading.
I hear the word "tolerate" how much nitrates can a fish tolerate. Once you take a fish to the "tolerate" level, you've already gone a bit too far.
Is it better for a fish to live in 10ppm or 40ppm nitrate?
I'll take 10ppm, how do we achieve that, I know, too repetitious.... Water changes.

My nitrates are 10ppm with 30% water changes a week. We are talking about how much water to change to keep the water clean. This is very much decided on the particular tank in question.

Nobody is saying that water changes are not needed or are not beneficial.

When someone has a specific question then a specific answer is best given. If we all went through life knowing just the how's and not the why's we wouldn't have gotten this far.


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[gilpi]

My nitrates are 10ppm with 30% water changes a week. We are talking about how much water to change to keep the water clean. This is very much decided on the particular tank in question. Nobody is saying that water changes are not needed or are not beneficial. When someone has a specific question then a specific answer is best given. If we all went through life knowing just the how's and not the why's we wouldn't have gotten this far. Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

Ok so the OP wants to know how many water changes should he be doing, I think that has been answered many times over and he wonders "why" after a massive water change in his own words.... His JD's had healthy babies?
I don't know but I think the OP answered the "why" ... Massive water change.

 

[Caliban07]

Ok so the OP wants to know how many water changes should he be doing, I think that has been answered many times over and he wonders "why" after a massive water change in his own words.... His JD's had healthy babies?
I don't know but I think the OP answered the "why" ... Massive water change.

You're not even reading the original post correctly. The JD had healthy babies after an 18 day vacation with no water changes......that's how this whole thing started.

I doubt the OP is even following anyway.


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[PB_Smith]

When someone has a specific question then a specific answer is best given. If we all went through life knowing just the how's and not the why's we wouldn't have gotten this far.

Exactly.
I promise that those who derive the most enjoyment/success in this hobby are those who understand the science underlying it and are interested in all that "chemistry nonsense" rather than not.

It is by virtue of understanding the science involved that has afforded me the ability to fashion my own filtration systems that are far superior to those brand name items that can be purchased for many times the $$$.

Now if I didn't understand the underlying science or wasn't concerned about all that "chemistry nonsense" than I too might believe the advertising hype and would have spent countless thousands of $$$ on worthless junk.

Caliban is correct that it is dependent on the tank in question and no one blanket rule will apply to everyone. If we were to adopt BB's methodology to saltwater reef keeping, you would see a lot of tanks die off as a result.

I currently have 30 gallon salt tank that just got a 5 gallon wc after almost three weeks. Tests before wc, ammo-0 nitrite-0 nitrate-30, after change nitrate ~20. Everything is healthy and thriving and the tank is rather under stocked at the moment.
Then I have a relatively new 10 gallon planted freshwater with tetras.
That has been getting 20%-40% wc's daily because it is a new setup, is overstocked with 25 inhabitants and I'm feeding heavily; 6-8 times a day.
It's a little experiment in how fast they can grow. My neons doubled size in two weeks.
Its parameters are about the same as the salt tank.

If I didn't design the filter myself to be able to handle a huge bio-load and understand the science of what was going on in the tank, all those fish would have died already, instead they are active and growing like crazy.

 

[gilpi]

You're not even reading the original post correctly. The JD had healthy babies after an 18 day vacation with no water changes......that's how this whole thing started. I doubt the OP is even following anyway. Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

The OP came after 18 days to find fat healthy babies.
This should not be about winning an argument, it should be about giving the right information