24 hour fishless cycle

[Mebbid]

1. I've read over the entire product including the FAQs and have yet to see a single piece of scientific evidence backing up the claims for this product. The aquarium industry has shifted to need scientific evidence to accept a product. Most if not all successful products have a boat load of evidence to go along with their product. This is especially necessary when a company is making outrageous claims such as this one.

2. While there are bacterial strains out there that will perform aerobic denitrification I would need to see the exact strain they are using to accomplish this. The same goes for the bacteria that converts Ammonia into Ammonium. I would also need to see the chemical process for this part.

3. They claim that their blend of "tri carbon" won't clog as long as you use a 10 micron filter. What they don't mention is that 10 microns is equivalent to the size of 1 of the smallest known diatoms on the planet. So unless you are running a diatom filter as a pre filter for your tri carbon then it will clog and become useless (common issue regarding a lot of filter media). This is their direct statement of the needed micron size prefilter. Following that I found this: "The more surface area is available to colonize the more efficient your filtration system will be. Filters that are clogged with fines or very dirty become anoxic and will no longer function properly." under their FAQ

4. Your testing methods have been far from scientific. What test kits are you using? Are you aware that 150ml of standard ammonia would put you at about 40ppm ammonia? What is the ammonia source that you are using? Calculator. I love that you are doing them but there needs to be improvements made to convince people.

5. I am going to point out that both Jetajockey and jlk put things in a very concise manner. It might be worth going back to revisit what they said.

6. Anyone can throw together a website to market junk products. This one is a great example AquaBella Bio-Enzyme for Fresh and Saltwater Tank No water changes for a year! Heck, if I truly cared enough to I could easily throw a website together that sounded very convincing full of testimonies. It would take me a grand total of 3 - 4 hours. It's great that you are an advocate for the product but imho their claims definitely need backing.


Snake oil miracle products come and go all the time. It is our duty to look at these things in a skeptic manner to rule out any misinformation that is being fed to us by people just wanting to make a quick $. People may not like or agree with it, but it's a methodology that needs to be used.

 

[Caliban07]

Think the op claimed nitrate was anaerobic which is accurate in low oxygen

 

[Mebbid]

Think the op claimed nitrate was anaerobic which is accurate in low oxygen

Nope, the site definitely says the denitrification is aerobic.

 

[Caliban07]

Nope, the site definitely says the denitrification is aerobic.

I know but it is originally anaerobes as the op pointed out

 

[threnjen]

Caliban/Mebbid I'm confused.
nitrification in our filters is aerobic and the bacteria that perform this are aerobic, are you guys discussing something different?
The op claims that denitrification in our filters is anaerobic
Edit: clarified, was confused.

 

[Wy Renegade]

HDL Receives Patent for "Right Now!"
HDL has been awarded a U.S. patent - Foreign Patents pending) on its revolutionary product - Right Now! - a 24 hour totally aerobic nitrification cycle that keeps fish alive. Right Now! has been laboratory proven to reduce nitrates aerobically, and is the only product on the market to do so.

So for a point of clarification, nitrification is the process of converting ammonia into nitrites and into nitrates - this process is completely aerobic in every tank. so their claim that their product is the only product to complete this process aerobically are completely false. They then go on to state that their right now bacteria reduce nitrates, but later make this statement;

Q: Can I use Right Now Bacteria for nitrate reduction alone?
A: For nitrate reduction you must use the proper amount of Tri Base Carbon with the Right Now Bacteria.

This statment totally contradicts their own claims - they initially claim right now bacteria reduces nitrates, then state you must use carbon. Everyone knows that carbon reduces nitrogen compound levels in the aquarium - there is nothing revolutionary or unique about that.

Conversion of nitrates into Nitrogen gas by bacteria is typically an anaerobic process.

@ the OP, In the testing method you describe, you indicate that you have plants present in the aquarium you are testing. Plants absorb/use both ammonia and nitrate, so to truly test the effectiveness of the product, you need to run your aquarium without plants, not with plants.

Their claims;

Q: How long will it take before my cycle is started and how can I tell?
A: The bacteria will colonize your filter immediately and begin to break down nitrogen compounds, and start your tanks nitrogen cycle. Some test kits measure several forms of ammonia and may give readings that are higher than they actually are. If Nitrate is present in your system, and is not in your tap water your cycle is completed. This should be measurable in 24-48 hours.

Silly - a detectable ammount of nitrate in the water, while ignoring the amounts of other nitrogen molecules that may be present does not indicate that a tank has the full component of bacteria of all types that are needed.

And lastly they are claiming their product works in both fresh and saltwater. The bacteria that are responsible for nitrification in fresh and saltwater are different bacteria.

Everything about this site, from their improper use of the vocabulary to their verbage twisting rheteric, screams that this product is suspect.

Instead of getting defensive and claiming other people's statements have nothing to do with the product you are trying to push and that you are not going to argue, perhaps you should open your eyes/mind and learn a little bit more about the topic yourself.

Edit: it is also rather strange that your very first post on the forum is pushing this particular product - wouldn't perhaps be a hidden agenda here would there?

 

[threnjen]

I'm really busy today and don't have time to read these, but here are the patents by this company.

Two are granted:
United States Patent: 6562585
United States Patent: 6025152

One is in application:
United States Patent Application: 0120240832

 

[threnjen]

Well I tried to skim one of them but I really must go work. I am guessing the product uses heterotrophic bacteria to accomplish its goals in the short term. All of the supporting examples in the first patent are short-term examples. Problem is, heterotrophic bacteria do not colonize the filter. They just hang out in the water column. This is the problem with a lot of bacterial additives.
This is just speculation. Someone with more time can read these more thoroughly, and I will later when I have more time.

 

[Caliban07]

Caliban/Mebbid I'm confused.
Denitrification in our filters is aerobic and the bacteria that perform this are aerobic, are you guys discussing something different?
The op claims that denitrification in our filters is anaerobic

Nitrification is aerobic Jen denitrification is not. Denitrification takes place where there is very little to no oxygen flow. These pockets do exist but are not enough to effectively get through a typical aquarium nitrate output considering the rate at which they are produced. That's why we have to water change. There was a guy on here who was trying to make a nitrate filter using the optimum flow rate and some other materials. Not sure how it panned out.

 

[threnjen]

Riiiiiiiiiiight nitrification denitrification same difference....
Yeah not really those are totally different things.
Obviously I was THINKING of nitrification

 

[threnjen]

OK so really this product is claiming to do two completely separate things.

a) Instantly cycle with your standard bacteria-in-a-bottle (and this seems to be the thing the Op is testing/claiming)
b) remove nitrAtes

Is that where we're at? Cause obviously confusing the whole nitrification/denitrification discussion I was on a totalllly different wavelength there for a while

 

[Caliban07]

OK so really this product is claiming to do two completely separate things.

a) Instantly cycle with your standard bacteria-in-a-bottle (and this seems to be the thing the Op is testing/claiming)
b) remove nitrAtes

Is that where we're at? Cause obviously confusing the whole nitrification/denitrification discussion I was on a totalllly different wavelength there for a while

Yes they claim it removes nitrate. But by remove they could mean detoxifys. This is also said on the prime website they say removes then goes on to explain it detoxifys. I think the carbon filter thing is just a money spinner for the less informed. What is interesting is that it claims you only have to use it once. I wonder if it detoxifies for oonger than prime. They keep going on about it being super concentrated.

Sent from my SM-T210 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[mrvincent]

Lol just saw some reply in my mailbox, if you're talking about a product that remove nitrates....

Most bacterias won't convert [nitrates --> something else] in aquariums, thoses bacterias you're talking require really low low O2 levels, and fishs cannot live in theses conditions.

There's no need to talk here about 0 water changes, it's actually impossible, and I just think here there's nobody enough skilled/brigh to create an aquarium that don't require WCs.

Maybe somebody have an automatic water changer ???
Would be great for 100g+ tanks.

 

[chicodelmar]

What you see is NOT what you get or is it?

I feel i am coming after the battle and perhaps everyone is tired discussing this topic. I think we are a bit stuck on what bacteria do or don't do.
The bacteria kingdom (no such thing but please, follow me) is as undervalued as it is unknown. What science has been (mostly) interested in were pathogenic microbes. To understand their behavior, they had to isolate them and observe their reaction to a multitude of external factors. Same with good bugs. Rarely microbes have been studied in their natural environment, or taken out of it and studied in-vivo/vitro or ex-vivo. We often get wrapped up into a belief system due to methodologies' limitations or scientific dogma.
It is much easier to study a particular microbe's reaction to a chemical than it is to study a whole ecosystem highly dependent on microbeS.
So we can argue all we want about this being possible or not, the truth is we don't know much. So without trying ourselves, or getting a much deeper understanding of bacteria, it is merely a contest of opinions.
However, the Human Microbiome Project is providing a "new" understanding of the role of bacteria and their life, contribution (...) in and on our bodies.

I was intrigued by a product called Aquabella bio-enzyme and decided to give it a try after watching a video on youtube. The guy claimed it would cycle my aquarium in 48 hours. So I followed his instruction and added my fish and snail 48 hours after testing the water parameters. Four months later I have yet to change water and have nitrate levels of 10ppm. Am I lucky or is it something about this product that defies all logic (it defies everything we've been told, that's for sure).

So I called and to my surprise, the guy did not dodge one question and admitted that although they can't prove it yet, the only reason aerobic, facultative and anaerobic bacteria would last that long (a year without water change is their claim) is because of the diversified pool of bacteria, that once combined would support one another's functions and self-regulate one another (this has been observed in the context of the Human Microbiome Project). But he cautioned me, he said this is a natural solution, do not expect miracles if you overstock, overfeed ... He also said they are aware that it might not work for every setting, but thus far they believe to have a 95% success rate.

I asked him why 48 hours? He said that you can actually add the fish after 6 hours in a water free of chloramine/ chlorine, and that the time it will take for ammonia to generate, the denitrifying bacteria would already be at work. But he says they ask people to wait 48 hours to make sure the all spectrum of bacteria has been activated (people tend to add more fish than they should) and to let the dechlorinator wear off.

I have been researching and reading a lot of papers on bacteria and i have yet to find anything that would contradict their claims. One thing for sure, this product DOES the cycling, and it does it well.

Ok, that has been my experience.

 

[mrvincent]

Four months later I have yet to change water and have nitrate levels of 10ppm. Am I lucky or is it something about this product that defies all logic (it defies everything we've been told, that's for sure).

If you didn't changed water for 4 months, and you have some bioload in that tank, and read 10ppm NO3, it's probably because your NO3 test kit is not accurate, or maybe you didn't shaked the bottle #2 or #3 enough...

Or probably the tank is well lid with heavy planted ?

 

[Mebbid]

Ok, that has been my experience.

How about some more details about your tank?

 

[Mebbid]

So I have looked over about a dozen different forum threads about the product that Chicodelmar pointed out and I found one thing in common with all of them. The only people promoting the product have single digit post counts on the forums. Something seems about that.

 

[chicodelmar]

So I have looked over about a dozen different forum threads about the product that Chicodelmar pointed out and I found one thing in common with all of them. The only people promoting the product have single digit post counts on the forums. Something seems about that.

Interesting ... obsession? I have a great liking into controversial posts, especially when it bridges into my own obsession, the great blue. To be honest, i'll try everything as long as it fits "my parameters" of what i deem reasonable.

Now, if i have a problem with a specimen in my aquarium, i'll go on and ask. Although it is some time more confusing

What's "" to me, is to systematically turn down everything that questions the established paradigm.

But I don't take it personally

Edit: Forgot to say, before i ask a question, i research, i read everyone's answers and then if i don't find what i am looking for ... I ask.

There is one thing I want to ask, but i did not take pics before my crab died ...

 

[chicodelmar]

If you didn't changed water for 4 months, and you have some bioload in that tank, and read 10ppm NO3, it's probably because your NO3 test kit is not accurate, or maybe you didn't shaked the bottle #2 or #3 enough...

Or probably the tank is well lid with heavy planted ?

Getting older everyday, but my eyes are still reliable

No, FOWLR ... well one of my 10g has soft corals, does that count as FOWLR or is it another category?

 

[Mebbid]

Interesting ... obsession? I have a great liking into controversial posts, especially when it bridges into my own obsession, the great blue. To be honest, i'll try everything as long as it fits "my parameters" of what i deem reasonable.

Now, if i have a problem with a specimen in my aquarium, i'll go on and ask. Although it is some time more confusing

What's "" to me, is to systematically turn down everything that questions the established paradigm.

But I don't take it personally

Edit: Forgot to say, before i ask a question, i research, i read everyone's answers and then if i don't find what i am looking for ... I ask.

There is one thing I want to ask, but i did not take pics before my crab died ...

As a whole, reefers HAVE to be extremely skeptical about these products. We have snake oil products marketed to us CONSTANTLY. We will also HAPPILY accept products that pass the test as far as functionality. If I wasn't a broke college student is go out and buy this myself to test it.

Since you enjoy research then you have to find something odd about finding the only people that are speaking out as being fans of this product on forums having single digit post counts. Is it feasible that they are all from the company making the product that found the threads through google the same way I did? Imho 100% yes. The same exact fashion that this thread came into existence.

Getting older everyday, but my eyes are still reliable

No, FOWLR ... well one of my 10g has soft corals, does that count as FOWLR or is it another category?

That would be a reef tank.

Since you claim that this product work then please please please give us more.
1. How did you set up your tank?
2. What equipment are you running on your tank? (Refugium, skimmer, macro algae, algae scrubber, or anything else)
3. How much live rock do you have?
4. Was it cured when you bought it?
5. What is the stock of your tank?

ANY claims such as yours can be accepted, but we need backup data.