24 hour fishless cycle

[ArtistGardener]

What an interesting read . . . There is something to be said for a "newbie" to the forum starting a conversation about a very specific product--then attacking the moderators. My "mommy defense mechanism" immediately kicked in and registered in the red as soon as I read OP's response to Jlk's thoughtful, non-combative comments. It indeed sounds fishy.

 

[jwh0818]

It kind of sounds like he joined here to "attempt" to sell his product. I'll stick with my 4-6 week tried and true cycle!

 

[melosu58]

Many people are very adamant about the way they cycle tanks. As with everything else in this hobby there are several other ways to do things. We might not agree with everyone on the way they do things but we have to let others share their experiences and opinions. When I was a young aquarist I thought that my way was the right way till I found out that there are other ways. From the newbie to the experienced lets keep an open mind and esp. let them share their opinions and experiences without attacking them. It`s up to the OP what he wants to take from the thread.

 

[chicodelmar]

As a whole, reefers HAVE to be extremely skeptical about these products.

I would be as well. No problem about being skeptical, very healthy actually.

Since you enjoy research then you have to find something odd about finding the only people that are speaking out as being fans of this product on forums having single digit post counts. Is it feasible that they are all from the company making the product that found the threads through google the same way I did? Imho 100% yes. The same exact fashion that this thread came into existence.

I am only sharing my experience. I do concur that having a reef aquarium require from reefers to be much more cautious (re: my "excuse" for not having a larger aquarium). But I can also recognize the benefits of a product that can help many hobbyists not as knowledgeable as you. With all due respect, throwing out every product that sounds like snake oil without speaking with people who have tried it is not helping anyone.

And see, i am still here [/QUOTE]

That would be a reef tank.

Since you claim that this product work then please please please give us more.
1. How did you set up your tank?
2. What equipment are you running on your tank? (Refugium, skimmer, macro algae, algae scrubber, or anything else)
3. How much live rock do you have?
4. Was it cured when you bought it?
5. What is the stock of your tank?

ANY claims such as yours can be accepted, but we need backup data.

Thank you
1- Bought instant ocean salt mix, 2 large pieces of LR (did not pay much attention to the weight, may be 3 or 4 pounds), one piece had soft corals on it, about 5 branches (there are 9 now). Yes, the LR were cured and already well colonized with coraline; and caribsea live sand (i believe instant aquarium). the sand bed is anywhere between 2 to 3 inches deep.
2- I filled up tow buckets of tap water and used a dechlorinator, let it sit for 48 hours, then added it to the aquarium with the salt and a tube of aquabella. Let the aquarium run over night. Added the sand and waited for an additional until it had settled down before turning the pump/filter back on for 48 hours and then added the live rocks, a duncan, 2 clown fish and recently a peppermint shrimp because of infestation of aiptasia. Forgot the astraea snail.
3- i only have a penguin 150
4- turn on the light at noon and shut them up at 9pm. lights are LED.
Does this help?

PS: now i am starting to worry that i might need to add supplements. any recommendation that would not involve WC, i'd like to run the experiment for at least 6 months (which would have paid for the product).

 

[chicodelmar]

Many people are very adamant about the way they cycle tanks. As with everything else in this hobby there are several other ways to do things. We might not agree with everyone on the way they do things but we have to let others share their experiences and opinions. When I was a young aquarist I thought that my way was the right way till I found out that there are other ways. From the newbie to the experienced lets keep an open mind and esp. let them share their opinions and experiences without attacking them. It`s up to the OP what he wants to take from the thread.

Thank you, that's helping me breeze a bit and continue the conversation.

 

[Mebbid]

I would be as well. No problem about being skeptical, very healthy actually.




I am only sharing my experience. I do concur that having a reef aquarium require from reefers to be much more cautious (re: my "excuse" for not having a larger aquarium). But I can also recognize the benefits of a product that can help many hobbyists not as knowledgeable as you. With all due respect, throwing out every product that sounds like snake oil without speaking with people who have tried it is not helping anyone.

And see, i am still here

Thank you
1- Bought instant ocean salt mix, 2 large pieces of LR (did not pay much attention to the weight, may be 3 or 4 pounds), one piece had soft corals on it, about 5 branches (there are 9 now). Yes, the LR were cured and already well colonized with coraline; and caribsea live sand (i believe instant aquarium). the sand bed is anywhere between 2 to 3 inches deep.
2- I filled up tow buckets of tap water and used a dechlorinator, let it sit for 48 hours, then added it to the aquarium with the salt and a tube of aquabella. Let the aquarium run over night. Added the sand and waited for an additional until it had settled down before turning the pump/filter back on for 48 hours and then added the live rocks, a duncan, 2 clown fish and recently a peppermint shrimp because of infestation of aiptasia. Forgot the astraea snail.
3- i only have a penguin 150
4- turn on the light at noon and shut them up at 9pm. lights are LED.
Does this help?

PS: now i am starting to worry that i might need to add supplements. any recommendation that would not involve WC, i'd like to run the experiment for at least 6 months (which would have paid for the product).

See now this is the exact kind of info we need!

Did you allow the live rock to dry out at all between buying it and adding it to your tank? Was there any ammonia spike at all after adding the fish?

It sounds like you have a really stable system going. It's something I really wouldn't expect to see when adding fish right after fresh live rock. I couldn't even come close to getting a 0 nitrate / phosphate system without my refugium full of macro algae. If you've ever heard of anyone trying this product with dry rock I'd really love to see some input from them as well.

For dosing I would suggest dosing a 2 part supplement as your alkalinity and calcium will drop over time (especially alk)
An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

As for trace elements I don't personally use any so some other people might be able to chime in.

 

[chicodelmar]

Well, there is one thing i wrote earlier, and no one has actually picked up on it. From where i stand, and it is not very high, can we agree we don't know much about bacteria and how they contribute to maintaining healthy water ecosystems? Including the ones we set up and maintain (besides their contribution to the nitrogen cycle, and how they breakdown nutrients)?

 

[mrvincent]

We know how they act in the aquarium filter system, and how they help keeping ammonia at 0. But for sure, there's millions of types of theses bacterias, and they're not all documented.

But almost every fishkeepers know they're here and they're acting. Tests kits prove something convert ammonia->nitrites->nitrates.

There are bacterias that converts food/waste into ammonia. There are bacterias that convert nitrates to food or ammonia, but thoses bacterias live under very low oxygen conditions, and are most of the time non present in aquariums.

Everytime you add food to the system, total nitrogen increase, and have to be removed.

 

[Mebbid]

Well, there is one thing i wrote earlier, and no one has actually picked up on it. From where i stand, and it is not very high, can we agree we don't know much about bacteria and how they contribute to maintaining healthy water ecosystems? Including the ones we set up and maintain (besides their contribution to the nitrogen cycle, and how they breakdown nutrients)?

I can agree to that. There is an overall lack of study on microbes in the aquarium aside from the bad ones.

 

[Delapool]

I can't believe more study doesn't get done. Some products have been around for decades and you would think something better could be done.

Fish food may have come a long way? The variety seems to have improved a lot.

 

[chicodelmar]

from lunch break

See now this is the exact kind of info we need!

Did you allow the live rock to dry out at all between buying it and adding it to your tank? Was there any ammonia spike at all after adding the fish?

None, whatsoever, and i did test the water regularly (API master).

It sounds like you have a really stable system going. It's something I really wouldn't expect to see when adding fish right after fresh live rock.

Is it because of bacteria not having enough time to multiply? If understand how this product works, the bacteria are dormant and will activate on contact with water and multiply accordingly to the amount of surface to colonize and food.

Thank you for the tip, i'll look into this over the weekend.

 

[chicodelmar]

indeed

I can't believe more study doesn't get done. Some products have been around for decades and you would think something better could be done.

Fish food may have come a long way? The variety seems to have improved a lot.

i'm with you on that. I have visited a few R&D labs and I can tell you the limit of everything that is researched and developed is ... the lab. Meaning it is almost impossible to replicate what is happening in real life. That's how one can make every research sounds like a breakthrough.

 

[chicodelmar]

We know how they act in the aquarium filter system, and how they help keeping ammonia at 0. But for sure, there's millions of types of theses bacterias, and they're not all documented.

But almost every fishkeepers know they're here and they're acting. Tests kits prove something convert ammonia->nitrites->nitrates.

There are bacterias that converts food/waste into ammonia. There are bacterias that convert nitrates to food or ammonia, but thoses bacterias live under very low oxygen conditions, and are most of the time non present in aquariums.

Everytime you add food to the system, total nitrogen increase, and have to be removed.

What is the most fascinating "discovery" about the human microbiome project is the more diversified bacterial population, the healthier the "ecosystem" (if i can refer to us as an ecosystem). It confirms previous work down on soil, whereas depleted soil (little or no presence of microorganisms) are either becoming sterile or affected by pathogenic microbes.

Yes, the aerobic bacteria are well known to us, the break down of food and waste is a result of enzymic activity, normally produced by the bacteria. I think (and of course it is only a supposition) that the combined activity of different strains of bacteria make it possible.

 

[Wy Renegade]

So I'm afraid that I'm going to be the guy that throws a monkey wrench into the works here.

First of all, if we are talking a FOWLR, which I think is what you stated, and as you said, you added fully cured LR to the system, then there was absolutely no need for your bacteria in the bottle, and your having added it quite frankly doesn't establish or mean anything. With sufficient fully cured LR, the bacteria needed to "cycle" a tank are already present in the rock.

Now if you had added uncured LR to the tank or had not LR at all and where getting these results, then we would have something to talk about. But adding additional bacteria-in-a-bottle to a system that already has established LR really adds nothing to the equation.

 

[Mebbid]

So I'm afraid that I'm going to be the guy that throws a monkey wrench into the works here.

First of all, if we are talking a FOWLR, which I think is what you stated, and as you said, you added fully cured LR to the system, then there was absolutely no need for your bacteria in the bottle, and your having added it quite frankly doesn't establish or mean anything. With sufficient fully cured LR, the bacteria needed to "cycle" a tank are already present in the rock.

Now if you had added uncured LR to the tank or had not LR at all and where getting these results, then we would have something to talk about. But adding additional bacteria-in-a-bottle to a system that already has established LR really adds nothing to the equation.

Which is exactly why I asked about anyone doing it with dry rock. Even you can't deny that it's extremely rare to have a fully reductive system straight out of the gate. Not unheard of, but definitely not a normal occurrence.

 

[Wy Renegade]

Which is exactly why I asked about anyone doing it with dry rock. Even you can't deny that it's extremely rare to have a fully reductive system straight out of the gate. Not unheard of, but definitely not a normal occurrence.

No, I'm sorry, I do deny that. If you are using quality, fully cured LR, and you use the proper quantity of it, and you are not shipping or transporting in such a way that the rock experiences die-off, then you have a fully established system right out of the gate. I've done this many times with many different tanks. Do it properly, and you can have a fully established tank set up and fully stocked in a matter of hours, without issue. This is why a fully established saltwater tank can be run without a filter system without nitrogen issues.

The whole purpose of curing LR is to establish those bacteria colonies and getting them functioning as well as to eliminate any dead or decomposing organic material from the rock that occurred in shipping. Fully cured LR is your biological filter, if you know what you are doing and you set the tank up correctly.

 

[Mebbid]

No, I'm sorry, I do deny that. If you are using quality, fully cured LR, and you use the proper quantity of it, and you are not shipping or transporting in such a way that the rock experiences die-off, then you have a fully established system right out of the gate. I've done this many times with many different tanks. Do it properly, and you can have a fully established tank set up and fully stocked in a matter of hours, without issue. This is why a fully established saltwater tank can be run without a filter system without nitrogen issues.

The whole purpose of curing LR is to establish those bacteria colonies and getting them functioning as well as to eliminate any dead or decomposing organic material from the rock that occurred in shipping. Fully cured LR is your biological filter, if you know what you are doing and you set the tank up correctly.

If we were talking about fully cycled then I would agree with you 100% but when I say fully reductive I mean the live rock taking all of the nitrates out of the water. That is something that most people never get from live rock alone. I am not saying that it's solely because of the added bacteria but I am accepting the possibility that it had a role to play.

 

[Wy Renegade]

If we were talking about fully cycled then I would agree with you 100% but when I say fully reductive I mean the live rock taking all of the nitrates out of the water. That is something that most people never get from live rock alone. I am not saying that it's solely because of the added bacteria but I am accepting the possibility that it had a role to play.

And I agree with you, you are almost never going to zero nitrates. However, this gentleman is not reporting zero nitrates either. He stated his nitrates are reading at 10ppm, that is not zero. Additionally, lets ask the question nobody has asked ~ is he running carbon in his filter?

 

[chicodelmar]

Now if you had added uncured LR to the tank or had not LR at all and where getting these results, then we would have something to talk about. But adding additional bacteria-in-a-bottle to a system that already has established LR really adds nothing to the equation.

Sorry, i might have spoken off my a** ... after thinking twice, i don't know. I imagine cured, because it was sitting in the LFS i bought it from, and did not seem to have dead organisms on it, but how could i tell cured vs. uncured?

If i follow your logic, even the live sand could cycle a tank, correct?

Based on your experience, with cured LR or/and LS, how long one should wait to consider its tank cycled?

Also, how does that bring the anaerobic bacteria in the picture? Do you think they are already present in the cured LR?

 

[chicodelmar]

And I agree with you, you are almost never going to zero nitrates. However, this gentleman is not reporting zero nitrates either. He stated his nitrates are reading at 10ppm, that is not zero. Additionally, lets ask the question nobody has asked ~ is he running carbon in his filter?

Yes, the last time i checked my nitrates, it read 10ppm, from 0 a couple of weeks prior. I'll check again tomorrow (day off) and let you guys know.

No carbon in my filter, it's a penguin 30, just a pad, and i added bio-rings in the extra space.